Non-scener's confusion about the scene
category: general [glöplog]
et le salmiakki, surtout le salmiakki.
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Would *you* tell me what the deal is?
The demoscene? The feeling of innovating with friends, while everything has been done before. :)
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I merely tried to make a point for, and about the unexplainable nature of personal preferences. At the same time, during a seminar at Evoke 2022 I asked the room:
"What made you stay in the scene?"
And collected the answers on a flipchart:
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Counter question: what's the deal with enjoying pasta, chess or coffee?[/quote/
And I took this very personally.
I merely tried to make a point for, and about the unexplainable nature of personal preferences. At the same time, during a seminar at Evoke 2022 I asked the room:
"What made you stay in the scene?"
And collected the answers on a flipchart:
yep, it's a scene.
rp: I love your g's
i wanted to comment about those g's too... you don't see those very often :D
ronny has leading.
sums it all up.
<3
sums it all up.
<3
what does it say about shaving?
shaving KNOWLEDGE, obviously!
As a perfectly normal white dude I wonder about the "0 judgement" and "security" comments on rps flipchart. Is that really how everybody feels?
As a perfectly normal white dude I wonder about the "0 judgement" and "security" comments on rps flipchart. Is that really how everybody feels?
Somehow i'm less unsettled by the rather thinly-veiled OP troll attempt than...
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this myth being perpetuated time and again until it becomes a truth eventually. =)The scene evolved:
- from crackers who enjoyed making intros more than actual cracking
- through very good coders who tried to achieve things hitherto considered impossible on the respective platforms
- to a community of people interested in creative computing and computer arts.
At the same time people's manners in online forums remained at the childhood stage and many memes and inside jokes appeared which were perpetuated in the productions (e.g. "rob is jarig").
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As a perfectly normal white dude I wonder about the "0 judgement" and "security" comments on rps flipchart. Is that really how everybody feels?
As a perfectly normal white dude, these are not feelings I associate with the scene personally.
@Krill? Which one is a myth? I am just curious to learn if I was spreading falshood, I used to write in articles that "the scene evolved from crackers who started being more interested in the crack intros creation than the actual cracking".
+1 on ronnys G's
Its a g thang
I'm also interested in the myth-debunking as Optimus is. I've told people the same thing, because I thought it was true.
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I used to write in articles that "the scene evolved from crackers who started being more interested in the crack intros creation than the actual cracking".
This is not the first time I hear somebody questioning this statement.
It's maybe possible to claim that the overlap between people who made cracktros and people who made early demos is slightly less strong than what is often assumed. But initially both cracktros and demos looked pretty much the same so it seems in any case that the demoscene emerged from cracktros. And one cannot deny a large overlap between cracking and demo people and groups as well.
I've tried to dig out this a bit in the Demozoo. It's not difficult to find an early demo group which has no any sign of cracks in their release list (try something like Fashion). But then when you browse data of individual members you are quite likely to find some of them being credited in cracktros or being members of cracking groups as well.
I should not make an infantile, typography related g-spot pun. :)
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But initially both cracktros and demos looked pretty much the same so it seems in any case that the demoscene emerged from cracktros.
Not denying some overlap, but the second part of that sentence is not what follows from the first: It could even be the other way around. If you dig deep enough, you find demos (in today's sense, with fully developed notion, awareness and aesthetics) with the intent to demonstrate their skills and a machine's capabilities. For example...
Some groups never started cracking, but recognized that they wanted to have a fling with this artform, and not waste their time cracking (for vindication or what?). So yes, it's a myth. :-)
Did one emerge from the other or was it just one big heterogeneous melting pot of home computer enthusiasts coming together because "yay ''free'' software and likeminded people" that eventually proliferated into more autonomous scenes?
LJ: They didn't emerge from each other. In the heyday of overlap (mid 1980s onwards) it was a melting pot for sure, but it came down to groups forming around people with their interests. These weren't homogenous. Swapping was key: Cracks and demos were all hot stuff and eagerly awaited in the mailbox.
But there is a danger to go astray by thinking that some counterexamples refute a larger statistical trend.
It is notable that there has been some early demos (like one you linked) out there without connection to cracking.
But isn't it pretty questionable whether the demoscene could ever have been emerged out of them and whether the authors of early demos had seen many of them. Probably such demos existed in Japan and the US as well.
When the demoscene really took off it seems that early releases were built on foundations laid by cracktros. It seems they typically took starting points like starscroll + logo + textscroll from cracktros (someone might say that they even got stuck in this thing for few years). And statistical thinking really supports this view. Probably virtually everybody had seen those C64 cracktros.
Regarding to the statement on the demoscene being born among crackers, I'd maybe be rather call it an overstatement than a pure myth.
It is notable that there has been some early demos (like one you linked) out there without connection to cracking.
But isn't it pretty questionable whether the demoscene could ever have been emerged out of them and whether the authors of early demos had seen many of them. Probably such demos existed in Japan and the US as well.
When the demoscene really took off it seems that early releases were built on foundations laid by cracktros. It seems they typically took starting points like starscroll + logo + textscroll from cracktros (someone might say that they even got stuck in this thing for few years). And statistical thinking really supports this view. Probably virtually everybody had seen those C64 cracktros.
Regarding to the statement on the demoscene being born among crackers, I'd maybe be rather call it an overstatement than a pure myth.
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But there is a danger to go astray by thinking that some counterexamples refute a larger statistical trend.
The statistical trend is that demos predate crack intros by many years, but crack intros surely have outnumbered demos for a while.
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It is notable that there has been some early demos (like one you linked) out there without connection to cracking.
And there are more. If we take this here seriously, we shouldn't dismiss them as outliers. :-)
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But isn't it pretty questionable whether the demoscene could ever have been emerged out of them and whether the authors of early demos had seen many of them. Probably such demos existed in Japan and the US as well.
My theory on this is that without a cracking scene a demoscene would have emerged as well (well - it already had), but it had remained a more marginal phenomenon. On the other hand, it might have developed into a different artistic direction - who knows.
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When the demoscene really took off it seems that early releases were built on foundations laid by cracktros. It seems they typically took starting points like starscroll + logo + textscroll from cracktros (someone might say that they even got stuck in this thing for few years). And statistical thinking really supports this view. Probably virtually everybody had seen those C64 cracktros.
There's too much "seeming" here for my taste. Instead of constantly replicating the same old myth, we could dig deeper and do more research. We even had a thread on this not so long ago, but I don't remember its topic.
Culturally, the organisation of cracking groups, the communication patterns and overall race for 'being the fastest/best' served as blueprints for the competitive spirit. And as far as I'm aware, the events we know as demoparties today can be dated back to copy-parties with demo competitions.
Since culture is an emergent phenomenom, one question would be: if we had a time machine, where would we go to to answer this?
Much more importantly though: what makes this even matter?
Since culture is an emergent phenomenom, one question would be: if we had a time machine, where would we go to to answer this?
Much more importantly though: what makes this even matter?
That makes sense, I was thinking about it yesterday, it might have been that cracking was a parallel thing happening at the same time, and some people might have jump from pure demo to cracking or backwards. Maybe some cracking intros inspired some pure early demoscene intros, I don't know.
The earliest more exciting thing people do with a computer is either videogames or displaying graphics, playing music. Everybody who started learning basic would instinctively use the graphics commands to display things on the screen. Older relation of demoscene is display hacks that was even a term in the 60s as I read in the hacker's book by Steven Levy on MIT hackers. So, it makes natural sense that there would be an evolution to demoscene in some ways (see also the parallel Japanese demoscene in pc-98 hardware where they weren't directly related but did basically the same thing). I guess cracking came in parallel as it was the other "cool" thing to do in a computer at the time and somehow it melted or mixed in our heads because of the cracktros similarities.
The earliest more exciting thing people do with a computer is either videogames or displaying graphics, playing music. Everybody who started learning basic would instinctively use the graphics commands to display things on the screen. Older relation of demoscene is display hacks that was even a term in the 60s as I read in the hacker's book by Steven Levy on MIT hackers. So, it makes natural sense that there would be an evolution to demoscene in some ways (see also the parallel Japanese demoscene in pc-98 hardware where they weren't directly related but did basically the same thing). I guess cracking came in parallel as it was the other "cool" thing to do in a computer at the time and somehow it melted or mixed in our heads because of the cracktros similarities.
A family friend worked for Boeing in the early 70s and made a punch card program that only displayed lights and visuals. Definitely a demo imo. Way before cracktros!
