pouët.net

checking the the end (endtro) / class discussion...

isn't it amazing that the people who are usually very close minded about diferent style of demos are against the warez/piracy.

and the ones who are usually thumbing up "artycrap" and "alternative" and "retrorevival" demos are in favor of it?

makes you wonder doesnt it..

oh and
sagacity: sales oriented movie+mp3 culture is "killing the scene", placing layers of crap pop-oriented releases over the quality stuff. thats bad and it should die, and lots of p2p services are aimed exactly at sharing the _alternative_ _good_ _non comercially accepted_ media and not attempting to kill the industry. they industry will always survive, there will always be chipmunks paying to be entertained in a theatre or living room couch.
brainwashed kids who still think what they see on tv and hear on their radios _is_ the best thing since sliced bread are what makes p2p services look bad and appear to be injuring the culture. (oh my god, millions of dollars of profit lost from the latest britney spears record.. the pain! how will she ever survive? how will her producers ever buy that new porsche?!)

blame capitalized society for p2p and warez, not the people trying to break through it.

plek: laws are what the majority of the population agrees with, not what the fat guys upstairs dictate.

information should be free, culture should be free.
and yes, software should be free too. find other ways to capitilize it, offer services, not its distribution.

[quote
plek: laws are what the majority of the population agrees with, not what the fat guys upstairs dictate.
[/quote]

yeah.



this doesnt work too well for all sorts of software products.

'lets distribute movies for free - offer services!' :(

oh well whatever, you're reciting arguments that have been long surpassed in the actual discussion; something that makes you look even more stupid.

i must confess i didnt read the last 20 posts yet. yes.
but my points are still valid.
and we should really move the discussion to bbs instead of the comments thingie...

the world sucks, get over it.

plek: egoism might also be a part-reason to why some people want money for their software and why other people want to have the software for free. my oh my what should we ever do...

gargaj: nononoo, this world is the best thing since sliced bread!

btw, i don't think this is the fault of piracy, but you should know that there are very few game studios left in france..... cracking their games won't help, you know.
i dig warez anyway, since it learns me what to buy and what not, but what makes plek react is that most people using warez don't buy anything. So warez becomes an unnecessary helping hand to stealing, in fact i suppose we all understand this, right?

to clarify a few things..

what makes me react is:

a) the fact that i like stirring up shit, and i really did one hell of a job at that :)

b) i simply don't have respect for silly teenagers copying media; i'd rather hit them in the face with a stick

i agree that free distribution is a touchy utopian subject though.
but even if other people are distributing 3rd party intelectual property, that wont bankrupt the 3rd party... it'll even help promote it. and if your own distribution ways are properly constructed and offer decent customer service ppl will still prefer it.

just like you prefer bread from your favborite baker.
just like you prefer a cd with jewelcase and cover graphics.
just like you prefer dvd director's cut edition.
just like you prefer seeing it on the bigscreen.
just like you prefer a proper linux distribution.

read this: http://www.df.lth.se/~triad/triad/3words/Consciense.html

crackass :D

"This year, 1995, I can walk into any public library, take out ANY book, go to the photocopier and make a copy of every page of it if I like. This is all perfectly legal, atleast here in Sweden. The Swedish state (and many other states as well) have decided it is every citizens right to copy book pages if s/he wants to."

what a pile of horse shit. Everywhere you are allowed to copy from books for personal needs. Not copy books to further distribute them. You are allowed to copy software to your own personal need, you are not allowed to copy it and further distribute it. It really IS that simple.
All this guy does is try to justify that he does what he does because he hates things the way they are, and that cracking is his political statement. You know what, if you really want to change things the way they are, enter politics. cracking is not going to move anything anywhere.

Information wants to be free, well...

// include libraries:
#include <iostream.h>
#include <conio.h>

// main is where program execution begins:
void main ()
{
// declare variables:
float R1, R2, Rp;

// input values of resistors R1 and R2:
cout << "\nPlease enter value of R1 ";
cin >> R1;
cout << "\nPlease enter value of R2 ";
cin >> R2;

// check if parameter values are allowed:
if (R1 + R2 == 0)
{
// avoid dividing by zero:
cout << "\nError: Result cannot be calculated";
}
else
{
// calculate result:
Rp = R1 * R2 / (R1 + R2);

// output result:
cout << "\nThe value of the parallel combination is ";
cout << Rp;
}

// wait for user to press a key:
getch();
}

there is your free information.- As soon as it is compiled into a program it belongs to whomever wrote it, and then it is their intellectial property, thus they decide what they want for it, or if people can have it for free or not. You are all perfectly wellcome to write your own programs that can do what you need them to do, its free of cost and most information is avaible for free.

An artist mostly uses things from nature to do their art, does that mean that their art is free because it was made out of stone...no it doesnt, but it means that you too can go find a stone and do your own sculpture.

This whole freedom of information is a duck, it is not all information that shall be free. Im not particulary interrested in people knowing my income or health status, not that i have anything to hide, it a matter of principle, i dont think anyone but me have right to that information.

So kids, think before you throw hippie shit like" information wants to be free" in the debate. It has nothing to do here, we are talking about "products" not information.

But yo are in luck...a lot of people fell that those who cant afford it, shall have it for fere untill they can pay. More and more comanies does this. Then use their free software and leave the others be.

uns3en: i just read that...

Ok, for a start, I don't know who that guy is, or how Sweden laws are... but here in Spain, the thing is like this:

- You can't copy books you don't own (those from a public library), it is illegal.

- You can copy any media you legally own, for personal use. It's called 'Private copy' and you pay a small tax for all empty media that uses it (VHS Tapes, photocopiers, and recently blank CDs). That tax is given (allegedly unfairly, taking selling lists as a reference) to the creators of the media (singers, artists, writers, etc.) through the editor associations.

Making software costs money, and a lot of it. I have a company which makes software, and it costs me -a lot- of money monthly. Also the development tools cost money, and making those development tools costs even more money. In a uthopic world, maybe everything would be free and we'd be paying to society with work, and society would give us everything we'd ever need back... but this is not an uthopic world, money exists, and is pretty unfair on the very same concept of money and prices.

So I'm asking for money back from my software, expecting, not only to cover expenses, but also to earn some for myself to be able to pay for other things I need or want to live. I work hard for it, and I wouldn't want any of my software (that doesn't include just the software itself, but all of the effort and money put into it) being copied without myself or my company being compensated about it.

A whole different thing is when you don't make software for a living... you just take your spare time and have fun making software, that's a means of having fun and it's self-profitable by itself. I don't have fun making software for work, I don't do what *I* want to do. It's my job, it's my 2 cents to this society, and I want something back from it (in the real world we live, that's money).

The guy who wrote that article either lives with his parents and gets paid for everything, or is just not involved at all in the software industry except for pirating it.

I pay for all the software I use at work, and I do warez for home, I recognize that, but it's just lack of money what stops me from buying the software for home. I buy all CDs I like, I buy all movies I like, and I pay for every software that I can afford. Thinking otherwise is just not seeing that you are not an just an individual; you live in a society, and you are part of it. If you don't agree with that society, that's fine, live on your own, but then don't use anything that society can give to you (that includes software, among MANY MANY MANY MANY other things).

Call it consumism, call it capitalism, call it whatever, but that's the real world, and that's the way it is. If anyone wants to create their own world, they're free to do it... but it's just not fair to be 'using' the real world, then don't giving anything back to it just because you don't agree with it.

My 2 euro cents.

Jcl said:

"Call it consumism, call it capitalism, call it whatever, but that's the real world, and that's the way it is. If anyone wants to create their own world, they're free to do it... but it's just not fair to be 'using' the real world, then don't giving anything back to it just because you don't agree with it."

amen!!

We all use warez for private use i dare to say. But its not like Microsoft looses money on it, rather the reverse, i mean.. Example:

You run warezed Visual Studio at home when making demos etc, you learn it damn good, you get stuck to it, so obviously you later on BUYS it at your company (or forces them to do so)... Etc..

I understand that you need something to eat and a place to live but I'm terribly sorry, information is nothing you can control like that. It's like trying to force people not to think a certain thought if they haven't paid for it or come up with it themselves. It's society and not the crackers fault if you're hungry, but hey, you're not alone.. atleast half of the earth:s population is starving so you're in good company!


Yes, everything is that simple. You know everything and those who don't think like you don't know what they're talking about.


...and if you think that through juust one more time you'll see why that is a complete and utter LIE.

..and as for possible replies, check "the end (endtro) / class", this is actually getting reeaal old ;D

If it was actually the hard-working software developers who were losing out as a result of piracy, then maybe I'd have a problem. But these are the people who put in all the work, come up with all the ideas, for just a fraction of the profits, while the big money goes to the "fat guys upstairs" - who themselves are often corrupt sleazebags anyway. So morally, I don't have a problem with piracy at all.

But I do think crackers are given way too much undue credit. They remove the copy protection, or in many cases, just include a serial number for a game etc and release it. Or they just take a camcorder into a cinema and film the screen for a couple of hours. Big deal!

Then, majority of the time they get demo sceners to code their cracktros. So I guess, as Plek said, they're just "silly teenagers copying media", and aren't necessary to the current demo scene.

you find it amazing that those who are very close minded about a certain style again found a battlefield to flame those equally close minded about a different style?

i certainly don't.

looks like we got a small misunderstanding here... check what you just said mate.
"for just a fraction of the profits" if the profit is smaller then the fraction of it is smaller.
And let me try to be clear on one aspect: those "corrupt sleazebags" are the first to take their shares from the lot...

anyways: todays hail goes to JCL and plek... one of them for saying good things, another one for being able to stir the shit in a quite original way... :)

hmm, this is starting to kinda get off point.

i don't think we should deal with "real-life" ethics here, but rather focus on what makes scene scene and not just another digital community. i won't participate in this online debate any longer, since i got exams and housemoving to do, but i can promise a diskmag article that will analyze this problem-field from a more sophisticated standpoint.

and hmm, in fact, the whole discussion up to now was far less retarded than i'm used of pouet. even plek has shown that he can articulate himself not only be insultations (though it seems he still can't leave insulting besides that...) :)

ok, i said to myself not to comment on this thread but now i do it anyway... it's not likely people would buy more software if there were no "cracker" groups out there. the products are too often way too expensive for normal people to buy. so, if you would get rid of all the warez leeching i doubt you would see a remarkable increase of money for the software developers anyway. on the other hand, i totally agree that making a profit out of someone else work is a bad thing, however, its very rare these days that the warez groups earn any money from what they do. keep piracy alive!

dipswitch: im not buying your "we have to remember our roots" though ;) for example as for my country and it's noble history i dont give a fuck. other peoples misstakes could ofcourse be of lesson but other than that let the past be done and THE FUTURE EB NOW!!11

my preferred business model: free for noncommercial use, pay for commercial use...
(well, i use this model even if the company who made the software does not use it :)

i love buying things i like, but, for example in my country the average price of not-really-alternative cd-s is about 20 euros, while the average monthly earning is i about 520 euros (summer of 2003), and *you still have to pay all the taxes from that*... nevertheless, while i'm copying more mp3 than the average, i'm also buying more cd-s than the average...

[and yes, i respect crackers - the people i don't respect are those who for example make copies of software/media to _sell_ them]

ryg: hmmm... i dont think they/we just picked sides purely out of kicks for hitting each others heads once again.. i surely didnt atleast..
my theory was that its somewhat of an openmindedness related thing to some degree..
(but i think you had understood my point already..)