untergrund.net news/updates/questions
category: general [glöplog]
I'll be happy to keep a dump in trust if scamp wants to donate, say, a tarball of all files, a global MySQL dump and the user database, so that some future interested party could work on making static versions or bringing back the hosting in some safe and modern way. (I am not interested in hosting any web content, in particular not any PHP. It would simply be a moat against all of this data being lost forever when the servers go down, nothing more, nothing less.)
I‘m not sure scamp can reply at the moment. He may be blocked. If you want to communicate with him, drop him an email.
I'm sure scamp knows how to send me an email if he wants to take me up on the offer. :-)
Sesse I hope scamp takes your offer and does not want to take the files hostage.
So, Scamp is blocked here. Was wondering, why he doesn´t response...well, for reasons i think.
@Sesse ... This would be very kind and nice, if you keep this legacy beside scamp. That bitfellas has gone, even if it is said, it will come back, i´m confident it wont come back anymore, was a big lost for us.
The question persists. How to archive that dynamic content, not ranged to the demoscene only as the digital legacy in general is immense and dynamic (php) driven systems will come and go in a fast paced world, before that all, we had books etc. but now...
@Sesse ... This would be very kind and nice, if you keep this legacy beside scamp. That bitfellas has gone, even if it is said, it will come back, i´m confident it wont come back anymore, was a big lost for us.
The question persists. How to archive that dynamic content, not ranged to the demoscene only as the digital legacy in general is immense and dynamic (php) driven systems will come and go in a fast paced world, before that all, we had books etc. but now...
i got more concerns about scamp and others getting blocked here than wasting a thought on if there is any worth in preserving non/dynamic websites in todays world.
I was thinking about that too !!
@scamp if nobody is helping preserve history maybe you yourself can one final time invest ?
my music stopped playing when you test shut down the servers
I want the music to keep playing !!
can you not code an emulation layer where all sites are still alive and no links break ?
and make it very very simple to maintain so that the younger people do not have to invest anything !
@scamp if nobody is helping preserve history maybe you yourself can one final time invest ?
my music stopped playing when you test shut down the servers
I want the music to keep playing !!
can you not code an emulation layer where all sites are still alive and no links break ?
and make it very very simple to maintain so that the younger people do not have to invest anything !
Here's what I can't understand: You are on that beautiful island apparently, keep saying how shit everyone and everything outside of that island is, yet you seems not to be able to just let go and enjoy your life and leave others in peace.
scamp, if you read this: Lass los. Sei zen. Das bedeutet auch andere in Ruhe ihr Ding machen lassen. Niemand hat dir etwas gestohlen, niemand ist dir etwas schuldig. Das magst du vielleicht warum auch immer anders sehen, aber lass endlich los. Du wirst es mit deinem online harassment nicht ändern, du machst dich nur selbst zum Affen und tust anderen weh. Du hattest jetzt mehr als genug Zeit im Vordergrund um deinen Punkt zu machen und deine Nachricht zu senden. Wenn du noch willst, das dich irgendwer remotely respektiert, dann lass los. Um deiner selbst willen. Und Scheiß auf die Dateien auf dem untergrund Server. Die sind das hier auch nicht wert.
Peace out.
(let's see if I will reject having posted this. I don't feel like getting multiple walls of text or a 20min video in return. please.)
scamp, if you read this: Lass los. Sei zen. Das bedeutet auch andere in Ruhe ihr Ding machen lassen. Niemand hat dir etwas gestohlen, niemand ist dir etwas schuldig. Das magst du vielleicht warum auch immer anders sehen, aber lass endlich los. Du wirst es mit deinem online harassment nicht ändern, du machst dich nur selbst zum Affen und tust anderen weh. Du hattest jetzt mehr als genug Zeit im Vordergrund um deinen Punkt zu machen und deine Nachricht zu senden. Wenn du noch willst, das dich irgendwer remotely respektiert, dann lass los. Um deiner selbst willen. Und Scheiß auf die Dateien auf dem untergrund Server. Die sind das hier auch nicht wert.
Peace out.
(let's see if I will reject having posted this. I don't feel like getting multiple walls of text or a 20min video in return. please.)
Scamp has requested me to put this answer but this is the last time I will doing this !
If you want to talk then talk !
If you want to talk then talk !
Quote:
v3nom is still just pretending. He has ghosted victims to this
day. He has encouraged abusers. And he has made absolutely no
progress on trying to be a less cruel human. And no, he no
longer deserves a wall of text, because he will just plug his
ears and eyes, as always. v3nom is one of the worst hypocrites
the german demo party organizing bubble has on offer. When it
comes to us, he has taken taken taken, never given, instead
keeps trying to abuse me. scamp holding untergrund.net user data
hostage? after two years of asking for help? The explanation why
you can not just copy&paste such a complex system written in
Perl and PHP 25 years ago has been given. If unlike him you are
in the game of actually solving complex problems, step one is to
actually understand the problem. But v3nom actively does not
want to know, learn or make progress. He had potential, but
sadly is a totally lost case.
And meta: He knows well that I am blocked from posting on
pouet.net, but he keeps badmouthing and tickling the Lion.
This is clearly done on purpose. Does he actually enjoy to see
people suffering in some perverse way?
I will not reply to any follow-up from him. He should keep
his mouth shut until he has stopped ghosting victims of
abuse, including those dead ones he claimed to be friends
with. If you have worked for the scene for more than a decade,
and then still end up with your Karma bank account deep in the
red, one must be insanely bad at something else - and in his
case it's taking responsibility and protecting victims.
clearly you didn't get my message: Let it go!
I won't reply to any of the other nonsense.
I won't reply to any of the other nonsense.
Has he not left and let go a year ago or something or did I misunderstood his video ?!
If what he says in the video and writing above is true maybe you are the one who should let it go ??
I mean ... "venom" do not sound very healthy !
Maybe scamp have left does not make your own poison less harmfull ?
scamp sayed in his video he knows he is a problem ... maybe the scene does have more than 1 questionabel person ?!
If what he says in the video and writing above is true maybe you are the one who should let it go ??
I mean ... "venom" do not sound very healthy !
Maybe scamp have left does not make your own poison less harmfull ?
scamp sayed in his video he knows he is a problem ... maybe the scene does have more than 1 questionabel person ?!
Can we close this here ?
The stats listend on untergrund.net, are those up to date / current numbers?
I'm curious about 2 things, and that would help determine what kind of server / hosting is required to migrate untergrund.net (of course assuming there is some sanitation process during migration to remove any sensitive/personal data not meant for public):
1. How much space are all sites on untergrund.net combined currently occupying?
2. Does untergrund still face 300+ GB of traffic/month? (mostly caused by a few heavy hitters?)
I'm curious about 2 things, and that would help determine what kind of server / hosting is required to migrate untergrund.net (of course assuming there is some sanitation process during migration to remove any sensitive/personal data not meant for public):
1. How much space are all sites on untergrund.net combined currently occupying?
2. Does untergrund still face 300+ GB of traffic/month? (mostly caused by a few heavy hitters?)
You linked to example.com for whatever reason. (Also, note that 300 GB/month is about 1 Mbit/sec on average, so it's not a lot of traffic in the big picture anymore. Of course, there will be higher spikes, but it's the size of a large 5G cap these days.)
Apologies. I meant to link to this page on untergrund.net.
And never mind my second question. My thought is that whoever wants to take over the hosting, to have an as care-free server management of this as possible, so to use a well established hosting provider - such as Hetzner, located in Germany.
I haven't look at their offerings for a while, and thought that included traffic in the GB-scale is still a thing. It turns out that they either have a 1 TB limit, or in some of their offerings even unlimited traffic. Great.
So, my remaining question for now is how much space is actually required.
I haven't look at their offerings for a while, and thought that included traffic in the GB-scale is still a thing. It turns out that they either have a 1 TB limit, or in some of their offerings even unlimited traffic. Great.
So, my remaining question for now is how much space is actually required.
There's only really one person who can answer that. I can tell you that the FTP server mirror I have is 769 GB, but I don't think this is directly related to the web space in any meaningful way (it would just say something about the rough order of magnitude; e.g., I doubt the web space is 10 TB).
There's only really one person who can not answer that, because some glöperator appears to be on an ego sugar rush or something.
Anyway: The challenges are not the traffic or the size of things. Most challenges have been discussed in detail two years ago already, some of the discussions you will find in this thread (but most had been on scenecity):
1.) This is not static, there are 500+ user sites that use PHP and MySQL. If you just copy it, it will not work on the target you have copied to.
2.) The system security, most importantly isolation of users on the server were implemented 15 years before docker and stuff existed. FreeBSD already had jails, but here this was implemented with Linux kernel patches + Perl code. You can not port this. To run on 2026 hardware, on a 2026 operating system, with a 2026 PHP version, you would have need to re-write not only the whole system, but also 500+ user site code
The "reverted shutdown" for 5 days has now shown there are even more challenges:
3.) We do not know what is relevant or not. It's 900+ sites or something? One group of people says "no longer needed, shut it down and go away", and then a couple of days later it turns out this is still used by chiptune.com, and people have embedded pictures on scene sites including pouet hosted on their untergrund.net webspace.
And finally, the meta-problems:
4.) What you can view from the outside via http is only what the users wanted you to see. They also have stuff their that is non-public. You can not copy that stuff without consent.
5.) People who claimed to be doing something did not do it, or in a "selective way". I once was told that all prod download links on pouet pointing to untergrund.net have been changed to point to other copies instead. Turns out: No true at all.
And as a bonus the meta meta problem:
6.) Quite a bunch of websites belong to sceners that are dead. Good luck asking Crest, Acryd, Sobec, mbb & co what they want to happen with their webspace
I see myself as a problem-solver by profession. I have competence, resources, money, and appear to go the Benjamin Button way of being the last to die or something. But after years of thinking, I have not found a solution.
This is nothing a single person can take over.
I am now considering to go the route that the scene also had taken for their own compute platforms: Write an emulator. And if nobody is willing or able to help on that, I am considering to "hire" Claude instead.
For now: I will not shut down the system again until this puzzle is solved. The conclusion from this shut down episode is: The people who said "just shut it down, let go, and go away" are just selfish pricks who have NOT checked if this stuff is still maybe needed by scene members or not. Once more: Not doing anything constructive, but just shifting blame and burden.
But THB, right now someone first has to deal with anger management problems and glöp complexes some pouet admins appear to have...
Anyway: The challenges are not the traffic or the size of things. Most challenges have been discussed in detail two years ago already, some of the discussions you will find in this thread (but most had been on scenecity):
1.) This is not static, there are 500+ user sites that use PHP and MySQL. If you just copy it, it will not work on the target you have copied to.
2.) The system security, most importantly isolation of users on the server were implemented 15 years before docker and stuff existed. FreeBSD already had jails, but here this was implemented with Linux kernel patches + Perl code. You can not port this. To run on 2026 hardware, on a 2026 operating system, with a 2026 PHP version, you would have need to re-write not only the whole system, but also 500+ user site code
The "reverted shutdown" for 5 days has now shown there are even more challenges:
3.) We do not know what is relevant or not. It's 900+ sites or something? One group of people says "no longer needed, shut it down and go away", and then a couple of days later it turns out this is still used by chiptune.com, and people have embedded pictures on scene sites including pouet hosted on their untergrund.net webspace.
And finally, the meta-problems:
4.) What you can view from the outside via http is only what the users wanted you to see. They also have stuff their that is non-public. You can not copy that stuff without consent.
5.) People who claimed to be doing something did not do it, or in a "selective way". I once was told that all prod download links on pouet pointing to untergrund.net have been changed to point to other copies instead. Turns out: No true at all.
And as a bonus the meta meta problem:
6.) Quite a bunch of websites belong to sceners that are dead. Good luck asking Crest, Acryd, Sobec, mbb & co what they want to happen with their webspace
I see myself as a problem-solver by profession. I have competence, resources, money, and appear to go the Benjamin Button way of being the last to die or something. But after years of thinking, I have not found a solution.
This is nothing a single person can take over.
I am now considering to go the route that the scene also had taken for their own compute platforms: Write an emulator. And if nobody is willing or able to help on that, I am considering to "hire" Claude instead.
For now: I will not shut down the system again until this puzzle is solved. The conclusion from this shut down episode is: The people who said "just shut it down, let go, and go away" are just selfish pricks who have NOT checked if this stuff is still maybe needed by scene members or not. Once more: Not doing anything constructive, but just shifting blame and burden.
But THB, right now someone first has to deal with anger management problems and glöp complexes some pouet admins appear to have...
Sesse: This is not meant as an insult. But when you said you would MIRROR the FTP, I expected this included doing a reverse-crawl to update existing links to the FTP (for example on but not limited to on pouet). Or take over the DNS zone to some scene organization.
I understand you have/had good intention, but if this would be about starting an rsync, my mum could do that for me, and she's dead, buried and rotten for ~5 years or something.
Again, not meant as an insult.
But it's a little bit more effort that is required here than what you did. Like 2^16 times more effort.
I understand you have/had good intention, but if this would be about starting an rsync, my mum could do that for me, and she's dead, buried and rotten for ~5 years or something.
Again, not meant as an insult.
But it's a little bit more effort that is required here than what you did. Like 2^16 times more effort.
And to be clear here:
This has been my final posting using this "real_fake_scamp" account.
Once some people have managed to re-activate more than the primal part of their brain and are able to think outside of boxes of thought control and domination (and even failing at that), I'll continue using my actual account.
This has been my final posting using this "real_fake_scamp" account.
Once some people have managed to re-activate more than the primal part of their brain and are able to think outside of boxes of thought control and domination (and even failing at that), I'll continue using my actual account.
Thanks for the summary, Scamp. The migration of this sounds like an SAP project. Obviously, this is a huge undertaking - I'm always a fan of "you gotta start somewhere".
Before anything is build or changed or migrated, I guess the first step would be to get more information: There is no avoiding in going through all 900+ sites manually and categorize them (so to say a triage). I'd categorize them into:
Additional flag for sites with proof that user passed away.
Depending on the category, different actions can be then planned. As pointed out, there is a whole other dimension to it, the architecture of new hosting, and how to make the old stuff somehow fit. But I guess for now, starting with a big spreadsheet and doing triage would be a doable first step.
What helps for this is a full list of accounts, if possible with some useful metadata (e.g. last login of user, site sizes, using php/mysql yes/no, subdomains to check for linked content on pouet & scene.org...)
Before anything is build or changed or migrated, I guess the first step would be to get more information: There is no avoiding in going through all 900+ sites manually and categorize them (so to say a triage). I'd categorize them into:
- Actively maintained (to identify which site owner could possibly do their own migration with some help)
- Dormant / unmaintained, but still needed due to external use / linked content
- Dormant / unmaintained, no external use
Additional flag for sites with proof that user passed away.
Depending on the category, different actions can be then planned. As pointed out, there is a whole other dimension to it, the architecture of new hosting, and how to make the old stuff somehow fit. But I guess for now, starting with a big spreadsheet and doing triage would be a doable first step.
What helps for this is a full list of accounts, if possible with some useful metadata (e.g. last login of user, site sizes, using php/mysql yes/no, subdomains to check for linked content on pouet & scene.org...)
Quote:
Sesse: This is not meant as an insult. But when you said you would MIRROR the FTP, I expected this included doing a reverse-crawl to update existing links to the FTP (for example on but not limited to on pouet). Or take over the DNS zone to some scene organization.
This is a strange assumption to make. I offered to make a mirror for preservation, and that I did. I did not offer to go and do anything about Pouët, nor to try to hijack your DNS zone, nor try to convert that mirror into the primary site for anything untergrund.net, nor to “save” untergrund.net in any other way. If you are unhappy about my efforts, then, well, you're allowed to be unhappy, I guess? I did this explicitly because someone asked for something that happened to be easy for me. My offer of saving a (non-hosted) dump stands in any case, should you change your mind.