Your unpopular opinions about the scene
category: residue [glöplog]
Forgiveness should be up to the victim, surely?
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Forgiveness should be up to the victim, surely?
Exactly. But when you are not able to forgive someone who apoglized then you should think about yourself twice.
You can forgive and still draw a line that certain type of behavior is not wanted or acceptable in the community, and that it will not be tolerated. And dude, we're talking about a discord ban, not a ban from making demos or whatnot.
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think 3 times about our words before we say them.
You need an opinion poll to tell you whether or not you should think before you speak?
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Quote:think 3 times about our words before we say them.
You need an opinion poll to tell you whether or not you should think before you speak?
No. I need an opinuon poll to ask id we should stay anarchy or political correct.
Sorry for the typos. I am typing on my phone right now. :)
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But when you are not able to forgive someone who apoglized then you should think about yourself twice.
FWIW, I'm not aware of whether the woman in question has responded to Hardy's latest apology, so let's not put words in people's mouths here.
But again: it's safe to assume that women have been through this bullshit enough times to tell the difference between an apology that's worth accepting, and a thinly-disguised statement of "this is how I roll, deal with it" that just happens to contain the word 'apologise'. If someone doesn't accept an apology, it doesn't automatically make them in the wrong.
gasman:
Please stop claiming this for a fact. I don't have to be a Bornean peacock-pheasant to understand that burning down the rain forest is bad for the Bornean peacock-pheasant. I don't need to be shot to understand being shot hurts. Empathy exists.
And yes, in a lot of communities you might be privileged simply for the fact that you are a "middle-aged white man". There are communities where that's a disadvantage. A much more valid universal example on how to get privileged are people who inherit money, and having money in general.
However, if you believe you must have been discriminated to feel how discriminated people feel, I am very much convinced that most sceners have already felt this personally.
I personally have been discriminated, in parts extremely heavily to an extend that I was about to be emotionally and/or financially destroyed for:
- Not being religious
- For speaking frankly
- For my looks
- For my weight
- For working with computers instead of playing football
- For my brain capacity
- For my penis size
Most of this never happened to me inside the scene, but a hell lot outside of it.
So: No, IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE.
The "middle-aged white man" is an invalid generalization, it's oversimplification, and it's discriminatory in itself.
It makes much more sense to fight against discrimination in general, instead of just focusing on one single example of it.
Also, inside the scene, I have never ever seen someone getting discriminated for their age or skin color. The subject of being female is far more complicated, so at least you would need to cut the "middle-aged" and "white" from your claim.
Why does this "middle-aged white man" stuff make me and others angry? Because I regard it as an insult to my intellect. It's a lame line copied from Twitter, and mostly used as a row-hammer against others. It's my believe that with the typical brain capacity of sceners, I can expect something better than this.
And to me it also contains the aspect of shitting into my home - the scene - just for the sake of it. I have been so happy to see the diversity we have developed inside the scene, that you weren't negatively judged for dressing "weirdly", not washing yourself, undressing on stage, being able to walk around in "queer" dresses, to be a Goth, for receiving a blow-job on stage or for bringing your kids to a demoparty. For every single item in this list, in other communities you could get beaten up, jailed or hanged.
Does that mean we need to stop there? No. I will be more than happy if the scene becomes even more tolerant and diverse, and I will enjoy that a lot.
But this can only work if people are accepting to see the big picture instead of trying to pick out a single item - age and skin color - to be the only relevant factor in this.
So again: Can we PLEASE all stop using that "middle-aged white man" line? It will just piss people off and prevent a fruitful discussion of this subject inside our scene.
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people who aren't middle-aged white guys have better insight into where that's happening (and, shock, stating that fact is not discriminatory against middle-aged white guys)
Please stop claiming this for a fact. I don't have to be a Bornean peacock-pheasant to understand that burning down the rain forest is bad for the Bornean peacock-pheasant. I don't need to be shot to understand being shot hurts. Empathy exists.
And yes, in a lot of communities you might be privileged simply for the fact that you are a "middle-aged white man". There are communities where that's a disadvantage. A much more valid universal example on how to get privileged are people who inherit money, and having money in general.
However, if you believe you must have been discriminated to feel how discriminated people feel, I am very much convinced that most sceners have already felt this personally.
I personally have been discriminated, in parts extremely heavily to an extend that I was about to be emotionally and/or financially destroyed for:
- Not being religious
- For speaking frankly
- For my looks
- For my weight
- For working with computers instead of playing football
- For my brain capacity
- For my penis size
Most of this never happened to me inside the scene, but a hell lot outside of it.
So: No, IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE.
The "middle-aged white man" is an invalid generalization, it's oversimplification, and it's discriminatory in itself.
It makes much more sense to fight against discrimination in general, instead of just focusing on one single example of it.
Also, inside the scene, I have never ever seen someone getting discriminated for their age or skin color. The subject of being female is far more complicated, so at least you would need to cut the "middle-aged" and "white" from your claim.
Why does this "middle-aged white man" stuff make me and others angry? Because I regard it as an insult to my intellect. It's a lame line copied from Twitter, and mostly used as a row-hammer against others. It's my believe that with the typical brain capacity of sceners, I can expect something better than this.
And to me it also contains the aspect of shitting into my home - the scene - just for the sake of it. I have been so happy to see the diversity we have developed inside the scene, that you weren't negatively judged for dressing "weirdly", not washing yourself, undressing on stage, being able to walk around in "queer" dresses, to be a Goth, for receiving a blow-job on stage or for bringing your kids to a demoparty. For every single item in this list, in other communities you could get beaten up, jailed or hanged.
Does that mean we need to stop there? No. I will be more than happy if the scene becomes even more tolerant and diverse, and I will enjoy that a lot.
But this can only work if people are accepting to see the big picture instead of trying to pick out a single item - age and skin color - to be the only relevant factor in this.
So again: Can we PLEASE all stop using that "middle-aged white man" line? It will just piss people off and prevent a fruitful discussion of this subject inside our scene.
My girlfriend experienced discrimination in the demoscene in the form: "girls pay no entrance fee" and Pouet comments such as "not bad for a girl". That's bad, but not horrible. She understood where the demoscene came from, got over it, won a few prizes and left.
bifat:
Which is a pity.
But I am grateful you've mentioned "girls pay no entrance fee". This is just a perfect example that when it comes to girls in the demoscene, the matter isn't black and white, but complicated. That positive discrimination might have been good for a while, then a mixed bag ("it does making a first step into the scene easier for girls" vs "Female sceners do not feel valued or delegitimized"). It's also an example of the scene handling this complex matter pretty well, it's my believe that the timing when we stopped this was pretty much spot on.
I think nobody will object that "not bad for a..." often might be hurtful no matter what comes after the dots. It's often not done with bad intentions, though.
And I think that nobody will object that "not bad for a..." inside the scene very often happened and happens to girls, in particular. People really should try to avoid this line.
Which is a pity.
But I am grateful you've mentioned "girls pay no entrance fee". This is just a perfect example that when it comes to girls in the demoscene, the matter isn't black and white, but complicated. That positive discrimination might have been good for a while, then a mixed bag ("it does making a first step into the scene easier for girls" vs "Female sceners do not feel valued or delegitimized"). It's also an example of the scene handling this complex matter pretty well, it's my believe that the timing when we stopped this was pretty much spot on.
I think nobody will object that "not bad for a..." often might be hurtful no matter what comes after the dots. It's often not done with bad intentions, though.
And I think that nobody will object that "not bad for a..." inside the scene very often happened and happens to girls, in particular. People really should try to avoid this line.
What I learned from this is that positive discrimination is just discrimination. I was raised with discrimination as a non-topic. My parents pointed out all kinds of discrimination, but were never religious about it. Lack of empathy, mishaps happen. I'm stepping on others feet frequently, and I often feel sorry for that. But myself being decades ahead of the woke mob in development, this here now feels like a regression into tribalism.
Ok, fine.
D4XX,
Let's be honest here, as you said, this "normal and good" conversation started with _you_.... asking _me_ to stop expressing my opinion.
Interesting.
Also, and even if it's bad style from my side to quote from private conversations - in this conversation you also told me you have no tolerance for "pedos" and "rapists". Good thing to have. But let's get to that point later.
That's the first problem right there. You even admit you don't know what happened, yet you continue to insert yourself into any of those discussions you're not even part of, and you have a pretty clean opinion on things that you have no idea of, _as you yourself said multiple times_.
As multiple people said, this wasn't "something unusual" but a direct verbal assault at one specific person, and several people urged him to stop before anything happened.
This might have to do with the fact that the guy in question, years ago, sexually assaulted Darya. Physically. At a demoparty. Which pretty much ruined the party for her. (and just for the record, that was before she and I got together, I didn't have any skin in the game back then).
Funnily, if what you said above were true, this would be the point where you would get angry as well.
Instead, you go "but he apologized once in the onliner! Everything is fine now!" [Spoilers: He didn't. He didn't even say "I'm sorry". All he said was "Lol you misunderstood my joke". That's the fucking opposite of an apology, btw.]. Where's you set of values that you loudly proclaimed towards me now, huh?
Well you are obviously lacking the balls to stay on a discord channel even when people are discussing things you don't like there, so I'll skip that advice, thanks.
She never did that. I'm my own person. Shocking, isn't it.
Which is LITERALLY what is happening here. To regurgitate this tired point again and again and again, even if you keep ignoring it becasue it doesn't fit the narrative you laid out in your mind: Nobody has ever been banned for expressing an opinion or having certain political views, and seeing how this discussion here or Optimus' prod thread is going, nobody will. "Say your point of view" is what everyone is doing.
None of this happened.
Again, please show us even one example where we were doing that.
On the contrary, You are the one always bulliying her and me with your "funny" interjections and the stupid memes you post. YOU're the one calling names all the time and behaving like a massive wanker, honestly.
That is some utter bullshit. So yo say, if hypothetically Person A punches Person B in the face and then immediately apologizes, all is well, and Person B should really STFU about it? Surely seem like that.
And ...
Yeah, here's the thing. There is no "clique". This is literally a conspiracy theory you're trying to conjure up here. There's no secret cabal of the woke elite deciding what's allowed or not in the scene. It's just a bunch of unrelated people sharing the common sentiment of "don't be a dick".
For example I haven't got the slightest clue whose music you remixed and who is now "threatening" you (let's also state here that showing you the door isn't a threat), but let's in good faith assume here that you didn't just invent that story - in this case, there's still no "clique" going after you. It's just some people who have read what you wrote and decided they don't want to have anything to do with a person like you. That's all. Simple consequences for your actions.
Really, the one who needs to step back and _think_ hard about themselves is you.
D4XX,
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I also had a normal and good conversation with kb on Discord about it. And I told him there too, stop being angry about it all the time. At that moment i didn't know Darya is his Girlfriend. Later he told me.
Let's be honest here, as you said, this "normal and good" conversation started with _you_.... asking _me_ to stop expressing my opinion.
Interesting.
Also, and even if it's bad style from my side to quote from private conversations - in this conversation you also told me you have no tolerance for "pedos" and "rapists". Good thing to have. But let's get to that point later.
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I don't know what Hardy said tbh. I know Hardy as a rough but normal guy.
That's the first problem right there. You even admit you don't know what happened, yet you continue to insert yourself into any of those discussions you're not even part of, and you have a pretty clean opinion on things that you have no idea of, _as you yourself said multiple times_.
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Maybe he said something unusual... I don't know...
As multiple people said, this wasn't "something unusual" but a direct verbal assault at one specific person, and several people urged him to stop before anything happened.
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But I know that I also had a little discussion with Darya and that I was able to observe her arguing way over and over again, which, to be honest, also bothered me.
This might have to do with the fact that the guy in question, years ago, sexually assaulted Darya. Physically. At a demoparty. Which pretty much ruined the party for her. (and just for the record, that was before she and I got together, I didn't have any skin in the game back then).
Funnily, if what you said above were true, this would be the point where you would get angry as well.
Instead, you go "but he apologized once in the onliner! Everything is fine now!" [Spoilers: He didn't. He didn't even say "I'm sorry". All he said was "Lol you misunderstood my joke". That's the fucking opposite of an apology, btw.]. Where's you set of values that you loudly proclaimed towards me now, huh?
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That's why I left the channel on Discord voluntarily. Actionism with all due respect but see sexism everywhere or injustice every day looks like an excessive need to be active?
Here a tip from a middle aged white man: How about growing a fur? Or let me put it in a more radical way: How about simply grow balls to look past such things?
Well you are obviously lacking the balls to stay on a discord channel even when people are discussing things you don't like there, so I'll skip that advice, thanks.
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You can of course get upset about any crap and then in the end push your boyfriend forward, who then interferes.
She never did that. I'm my own person. Shocking, isn't it.
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But then keep arguing, say your point of view but don't ban anyone just because they don't share your point of view.
Which is LITERALLY what is happening here. To regurgitate this tired point again and again and again, even if you keep ignoring it becasue it doesn't fit the narrative you laid out in your mind: Nobody has ever been banned for expressing an opinion or having certain political views, and seeing how this discussion here or Optimus' prod thread is going, nobody will. "Say your point of view" is what everyone is doing.
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It also feels like that Darya starts her discussions with the people and if she lose on arguments, the guys who follows her has to speak for her and then hack at the person with 10-15 people to teach him how to have a "nice behavor". Not the way i would try to solve those problems.
None of this happened.
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So yes you do see it right. I am not a huge fan of Darya and kb much. Its no secret! I don't like that kind of arrogance about telling others what is right and what is wrong and involving the clique into this disccusions to muzzle others in a pack.
Again, please show us even one example where we were doing that.
On the contrary, You are the one always bulliying her and me with your "funny" interjections and the stupid memes you post. YOU're the one calling names all the time and behaving like a massive wanker, honestly.
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Exactly. But when you are not able to forgive someone who apoglized then you should think about yourself twice.
That is some utter bullshit. So yo say, if hypothetically Person A punches Person B in the face and then immediately apologizes, all is well, and Person B should really STFU about it? Surely seem like that.
And ...
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And btw... Exactly this clique is now coming from behind and threatening me that I should immediately remove their music that I have remixed and never remix or cover anything of them again because i'm not on their side? LOL.
Yeah, here's the thing. There is no "clique". This is literally a conspiracy theory you're trying to conjure up here. There's no secret cabal of the woke elite deciding what's allowed or not in the scene. It's just a bunch of unrelated people sharing the common sentiment of "don't be a dick".
For example I haven't got the slightest clue whose music you remixed and who is now "threatening" you (let's also state here that showing you the door isn't a threat), but let's in good faith assume here that you didn't just invent that story - in this case, there's still no "clique" going after you. It's just some people who have read what you wrote and decided they don't want to have anything to do with a person like you. That's all. Simple consequences for your actions.
Really, the one who needs to step back and _think_ hard about themselves is you.
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it doesn't automatically make them in the wrong.
I don't think so, tbh. If you want to spread love and diversity, you shouldn't react with 'hate' or "this is my opinion accept it or u hurt my feelings blah" so yeah... then the opposide say: And this is how i am. Deal with it i give a fk on your feelings, grow some fur pls. Just my opinion. If you won't meet in the middle then hate each other but don't ban one of them or ban BOTH!
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It also feels like that Darya starts her discussions with the people and if she lose on arguments, the guys who follows her has to speak for her and then hack at the person with 10-15 people to teach him how to have a "nice behavor". Not the way i would try to solve those problems.
This is probably one of the more disgusting reprehensible accusations in this whole debacle and illustrates the problem in its entirety.
Dare to hug your enemies.
KB, totally with you here. I'd like to make one point out of fairness though:
I remember something happening that may have been construed that way, though during a different topic: A lot of people were arguing against DAXX' points at the same time on Discord, and I totally understand how that may have felt like a tribunal or a mob to him - essentially you're alone and surrounded by people all talking at you at the same time.
Of course this is not anyone sending their friends to bully poor DAXXy but instead many people with opposite views speaking up at the same time because someone said something they strongly oppose - and doing so of their own volition. Perceiving this to be a coordinated action is pure conspiracy theory as you say.
But here's my point: I do think that no matter the side of the argument you're on, we have to stay mindful that the persons we're discussing with are human beings too, and maybe realize when someone is being dogpiled and take off the pressure. My belief is that it's impossible to have a productive discussion otherwise, as the person under the dogpile will go full self defense and completely close themselves to any kind of argument.
That's not what I see happening in this thread so far, but I've seen it happen on Discord (including pretty harsh language), and I think we need to be mindful of this, otherwise we may unintentionally become the bullies ourselves.
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Quote:the guys who follows her has to speak for her and then hack at the person with 10-15 people to teach him how to have a "nice behavor". Not the way i would try to solve those problems.
None of this happened.
I remember something happening that may have been construed that way, though during a different topic: A lot of people were arguing against DAXX' points at the same time on Discord, and I totally understand how that may have felt like a tribunal or a mob to him - essentially you're alone and surrounded by people all talking at you at the same time.
Of course this is not anyone sending their friends to bully poor DAXXy but instead many people with opposite views speaking up at the same time because someone said something they strongly oppose - and doing so of their own volition. Perceiving this to be a coordinated action is pure conspiracy theory as you say.
But here's my point: I do think that no matter the side of the argument you're on, we have to stay mindful that the persons we're discussing with are human beings too, and maybe realize when someone is being dogpiled and take off the pressure. My belief is that it's impossible to have a productive discussion otherwise, as the person under the dogpile will go full self defense and completely close themselves to any kind of argument.
That's not what I see happening in this thread so far, but I've seen it happen on Discord (including pretty harsh language), and I think we need to be mindful of this, otherwise we may unintentionally become the bullies ourselves.
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Quote:It also feels like that Darya starts her discussions with the people and if she lose on arguments, the guys who follows her has to speak for her and then hack at the person with 10-15 people to teach him how to have a "nice behavor". Not the way i would try to solve those problems.
This is probably one of the more disgusting reprehensible accusations in this whole debacle and illustrates the problem in its entirety.
Also to be clear: I was not trying to defend DAXX in the least here, just trying to illustrate one part of where he may have drawn that ridiculous conclusion from.
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Ok, fine.
D4XX,
Quote:I also had a normal and good conversation with kb on Discord about it. And I told him there too, stop being angry about it all the time. At that moment i didn't know Darya is his Girlfriend. Later he told me.
Let's be honest here, as you said, this "normal and good" conversation started with _you_.... asking _me_ to stop expressing my opinion.
Interesting.
Also, and even if it's bad style from my side to quote from private conversations - in this conversation you also told me you have no tolerance for "pedos" and "rapists". Good thing to have. But let's get to that point later.
Quote:I don't know what Hardy said tbh. I know Hardy as a rough but normal guy.
That's the first problem right there. You even admit you don't know what happened, yet you continue to insert yourself into any of those discussions you're not even part of, and you have a pretty clean opinion on things that you have no idea of, _as you yourself said multiple times_.
Quote:Maybe he said something unusual... I don't know...
As multiple people said, this wasn't "something unusual" but a direct verbal assault at one specific person, and several people urged him to stop before anything happened.
Quote:But I know that I also had a little discussion with Darya and that I was able to observe her arguing way over and over again, which, to be honest, also bothered me.
This might have to do with the fact that the guy in question, years ago, sexually assaulted Darya. Physically. At a demoparty. Which pretty much ruined the party for her. (and just for the record, that was before she and I got together, I didn't have any skin in the game back then).
Funnily, if what you said above were true, this would be the point where you would get angry as well.
Instead, you go "but he apologized once in the onliner! Everything is fine now!" [Spoilers: He didn't. He didn't even say "I'm sorry". All he said was "Lol you misunderstood my joke". That's the fucking opposite of an apology, btw.]. Where's you set of values that you loudly proclaimed towards me now, huh?
Quote:That's why I left the channel on Discord voluntarily. Actionism with all due respect but see sexism everywhere or injustice every day looks like an excessive need to be active?
Here a tip from a middle aged white man: How about growing a fur? Or let me put it in a more radical way: How about simply grow balls to look past such things?
Well you are obviously lacking the balls to stay on a discord channel even when people are discussing things you don't like there, so I'll skip that advice, thanks.
Quote:You can of course get upset about any crap and then in the end push your boyfriend forward, who then interferes.
She never did that. I'm my own person. Shocking, isn't it.
Quote:But then keep arguing, say your point of view but don't ban anyone just because they don't share your point of view.
Which is LITERALLY what is happening here. To regurgitate this tired point again and again and again, even if you keep ignoring it becasue it doesn't fit the narrative you laid out in your mind: Nobody has ever been banned for expressing an opinion or having certain political views, and seeing how this discussion here or Optimus' prod thread is going, nobody will. "Say your point of view" is what everyone is doing.
Quote:It also feels like that Darya starts her discussions with the people and if she lose on arguments, the guys who follows her has to speak for her and then hack at the person with 10-15 people to teach him how to have a "nice behavor". Not the way i would try to solve those problems.
None of this happened.
Quote:So yes you do see it right. I am not a huge fan of Darya and kb much. Its no secret! I don't like that kind of arrogance about telling others what is right and what is wrong and involving the clique into this disccusions to muzzle others in a pack.
Again, please show us even one example where we were doing that.
On the contrary, You are the one always bulliying her and me with your "funny" interjections and the stupid memes you post. YOU're the one calling names all the time and behaving like a massive wanker, honestly.
Quote:Exactly. But when you are not able to forgive someone who apoglized then you should think about yourself twice.
That is some utter bullshit. So yo say, if hypothetically Person A punches Person B in the face and then immediately apologizes, all is well, and Person B should really STFU about it? Surely seem like that.
And ...
Quote:And btw... Exactly this clique is now coming from behind and threatening me that I should immediately remove their music that I have remixed and never remix or cover anything of them again because i'm not on their side? LOL.
Yeah, here's the thing. There is no "clique". This is literally a conspiracy theory you're trying to conjure up here. There's no secret cabal of the woke elite deciding what's allowed or not in the scene. It's just a bunch of unrelated people sharing the common sentiment of "don't be a dick".
For example I haven't got the slightest clue whose music you remixed and who is now "threatening" you (let's also state here that showing you the door isn't a threat), but let's in good faith assume here that you didn't just invent that story - in this case, there's still no "clique" going after you. It's just some people who have read what you wrote and decided they don't want to have anything to do with a person like you. That's all. Simple consequences for your actions.
Really, the one who needs to step back and _think_ hard about themselves is you.
You! -> overreact here espacially your GF -> Darya. I for example made a joke with v3nom to vote the AfD and SHE came directly with antisemitshit against me cauz i said people can have different opinions and like each other? I mean wtf? Tolerance is a basic attitude and not a virtue. "I am an LGBTQ + supporter" What? Do she think i will kill gays and lesbian people or what do she want to tell me with that shit? Man, your gf puts people here under general suspicion with her bullshit and i think SHE has to apoglize here too! tbh! Calling me indirectly an antisemit. pffff.
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That is some utter bullshit. So yo say, if hypothetically Person A punches Person B in the face and then immediately apologizes, all is well, and Person B should really STFU about it? Surely seem like that.
Whataboutism mate! We talk about WORDS! I would NEVER EVER accept a men punchin a woman in the face or vice versa. What SHIT are you talking man? Do you only know the extremes that you can't differentiate between kindergarten and real crime? It seems like so you should ask yourself if you already been an extremist m8!
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For example I haven't got the slightest clue whose music you remixed and who is now "threatening" you (let's also state here that showing you the door isn't a threat), but let's in good faith assume here that you didn't just invent that story - in this case, there's still no "clique" going after you. It's just some people who have read what you wrote and decided they don't want to have anything to do with a person like you. That's all. Simple consequences for your actions.
Of course there is and i am not alone with this view. The exact same names who i thouoght last week in online with "always the same guys" are counted 1 hour ago via whatsapp from another demoscener who's tired of the bullshit talk of your gf. So THIS is u have handle with. There are more sceners having a problem with her. Deal with it.
Dude, you may want to time yourself out for maybe a day? You're just lashing out now.
Riiiiiight. Calm down, mate.
I'm genuinely lost for words.
No i don't... And for calling me inderectly an antisemit it will have now REAL consequences.
Look who‘s the one threatening people now.
"Oh noes, I have been constantly pouring oil into the fire, why is my scene burning now?"
But yes, daxx, take a timeout for a day or two. I've done that yesterday.
Everybody should be aware that we (me including) are burning our scene down here. It's become daily business of sceners that have been with us for ages quitting in pain and/or disgust.
But yes, daxx, take a timeout for a day or two. I've done that yesterday.
Everybody should be aware that we (me including) are burning our scene down here. It's become daily business of sceners that have been with us for ages quitting in pain and/or disgust.
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So THIS is u have handle with. There are more sceners having a problem with her. Deal with it.
Just when I thought it could not have possibly become more ridiculous, you drop this gem.
