RIP Nectarine... AGAIN!
category: general [glöplog]
MrsBeanbag:
Don't mix things up, the reason people are angry here is arab's total ego-trip in feeling not at all responsible for the legacy of Nectarine. That also shows how he saw his admin position, which many of us had already felt and guessed.
I don't know why you are so biased against the expression of feelings in that matter. You think arab's feelings matter more than those of the users? Did anyone put in doubt arab's right to step back from the admin position? Did he earn the right to purposefully annihilate the page which he overtook from apparently more skillful admins before him?
You may not have witnessed his admin style and the condescending comments about others trying to improve Nectarine, which has a great community. Calling it toxic is kind of odd, as you seemed to enjoy it there last time I checked.
Don't mix things up, the reason people are angry here is arab's total ego-trip in feeling not at all responsible for the legacy of Nectarine. That also shows how he saw his admin position, which many of us had already felt and guessed.
I don't know why you are so biased against the expression of feelings in that matter. You think arab's feelings matter more than those of the users? Did anyone put in doubt arab's right to step back from the admin position? Did he earn the right to purposefully annihilate the page which he overtook from apparently more skillful admins before him?
You may not have witnessed his admin style and the condescending comments about others trying to improve Nectarine, which has a great community. Calling it toxic is kind of odd, as you seemed to enjoy it there last time I checked.
This has to be the most naive way of dealing with the issue that I can think of. Baiscally taking away the site from everyone instead of cooling down your mind and coming back later to look at the conflict from a different, rational perspective. It's just plain unfair, and it suggests that the site would be better off maintained by someone that can contain themselves in situations like these.
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This has to be the most naive way of dealing with the issue that I can think of. Baiscally taking away the site from everyone instead of cooling down your mind and coming back later to look at the conflict from a different, rational perspective. It's just plain unfair, and it suggests that the site would be better off maintained by someone that can contain themselves in situations like these.
exactly this.
i completely understand maintaining a site as big and prominent as this and getting slapped in the face by a torrent of complaints on a daily (?) basis can be too much.
this is why you got to sleep on it before taking drastic measures and/or give complete access to someone else you trust.
ok. you are right i did enjoy nectarine a lot, although i haven't been around so much lately. my experience there was generally positive. to clarify, the toxicity is more the attitude of entitlement i'm seeing here although i obviously don't see everything that goes on the Nectarine oneliner and/or forums so i presume there has been more going on lately that i haven't seen, for it to come to this.
i don't think anyone's feelings matter more or less than anybody else's, i'm also disappointed to see what's happened, i'm still curious as to why it happened, but i don't like to see someone personally attacked especially when the full story seems not available.
and i think we should refrain from calling it "annihilated" or suchlike when all we know is it's offline.
i don't think anyone's feelings matter more or less than anybody else's, i'm also disappointed to see what's happened, i'm still curious as to why it happened, but i don't like to see someone personally attacked especially when the full story seems not available.
and i think we should refrain from calling it "annihilated" or suchlike when all we know is it's offline.
;(
I understand why people are upset about the decision to take our beloved radio station offline in such short notice.
Instead of calling names however, shouldn't the community take this situation as a hint to start over, with a renewed administration in place that is more transparent and dependable?
I as a long-time listener remember several instances of administrative abuse in necta's history. It wouldn't be for the worse if this came to happen.
Instead of calling names however, shouldn't the community take this situation as a hint to start over, with a renewed administration in place that is more transparent and dependable?
I as a long-time listener remember several instances of administrative abuse in necta's history. It wouldn't be for the worse if this came to happen.
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Instead of calling names however, shouldn't the community take this situation as a hint to start over, with a renewed administration in place that is more transparent and dependable? I as a long-time listener remember several instances of administrative abuse in necta's history. It wouldn't be for the worse if this came to happen.
Yes, you are right and things are being discussed on #nectarine at espernet and on a bridged discord channel.
I was probably talking as if I knew the situation, which is not true at all. It's probably really hard indeed to deal with daily bullshit like this, so I can kinda understand him. Anyways, there seems to be no invitation for people to take over, AFAIK, and that's what makes it a bit egoistic in my opinion.
If you feel pissed off, you can remedy the situation by making very many other people feel very pissed off as well? The more, the better? Good thing to do? Ok? Is this how you'd teach your children to handle things? I don't think so. I hope Arab is able to hand over the site content so all the stuff created by so many people can continue to bring joy and grow.
Administrating a site can certainly put you under a lot of stress, both emotional and economical, no one said otherwise. Still it is wise though to make it clear to the community about the burdens of all this and be open about how a certain behavior affects you negatively. It is always better (and a relief) to make arrangements for someone else to take over than pulling the plug, if all this is too much for you.
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It is always better (and a relief) to make arrangements for someone else to take over than pulling the plug, if all this is too much for you.
That's assuming you are able to stop caring.
Stepping aside and handing it off sounds optimal, but it also fails to address an elephant in the room - the REASON why you're stepping aside. It just means you no longer care either, which I'd argue from a long term collective perspective makes it even worse - there's some great reading about the tragedy of the commons here. The buck has to stop somewhere. All it would mean is that whoever takes over the site will either be also frustrated by the same shit, or they agree - if there was someone who would be more adept taking over, they would've been part of the admin team already.
Contrary to this, shutting the site down has a very noticeable effect to everyone, and it gets a statement out that noone can ignore, and it gets people talking (see 4 pages here and it'll prolly continue for a while). It's a much more effective way of getting your point across.
Some fitting music while we wait for Arab to resurrect Nectarine (Thanks Makke):
http://ia800209.us.archive.org/21/items/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
http://ia800209.us.archive.org/21/items/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
MrsBeanbag said:
1. A community builds something together involving the time and effort of many people over many years.
2. One individual gains complete control over the thing. Some have issues with how he manages it, but no matter, it still exists for everyone which is good, and he is appreciated for that.
3. Many people continue to contribute and build it over many years, spending hours upon hours upon it. The individual managing it is just one among the many contributors.
4 The individual decides he wants out. Maybe he has frustrations and weariness that no one else knows about. It's completely his call--he's not obligated to continue his role if he doesn't want to. He also knows that all the others who have built the thing alongside him continue to highly value the thing--after all, they all built it together, not him alone.
5. He doesn't initiate a conversation about his desire to end his management of the thing. He doesn't make an announcement ahead of time. He doesn't offer to turn the responsibility for the thing over to the others who highly value it and who, rather than feeling some entitlement about his toil, are ready to expend their own effort in the service of others.
6. He shuts down the collective work that has been produced by the efforts of many people.
7. People are angry, but not because he wanted out. They can sympathize with the fact that he might have needed a break. He has the complete right to stop expending the effort of managing the thing. But people are angry because he eliminated a cultural resource that does not belong solely to him, but which belongs to a large community, the many people who built it. It is not his alone; it never could have existed had it not been built by a community.
8. MrsBeanbag takes offense at the emotional reactions of these hurt people. Ignoring all the points they make, she construes the issue as one about the admin's "right" to stop managing the thing (a right that no had denied). Then she keeps invoking "entitlement" and the redundancy reaches a nearly comical stage.
9. Oldchap now asks her--once again--to identify the "entitlement." No one has said that the admin must continue providing a service. No one has said that he doesn't have a right to end his activities. In fact, many of those who feel injured by this act are themselves ready to expend new effort in order to preserve the cultural treasure.
Yes, there it is. Someone with the role of trustee of a common good that is built by a community does have obligations to that community, the least of which is the passing of the torch, the facilitating of the transfer of responsibilities, etc. Spurning those obligations is a violation of that trust. I shouldn't have to again repeat the obvious, but Nectarine was built by many hands and no single individual can claim to "own" it.
Wow, this just gets better and better. Did I ever say that his "emotions" were not valid? No. I said his actions were thoughtless. And even when we have unpleasant emotions, it is not license to act in a way that is hurtful to others. (Another lesson of adulthood.)
That's nice. I've owned my emotions all along. What's remarkable is that you'd rather censure those with injured feelings than hold the actor accountable for the actions to which those feelings are a response. It's really quite striking the degree to which you're motivated to shield him from responsibility in this.
Nuance matters. Saying that someone's unwarranted and publicly insensitive action reflects a "character issue" is simply calling it what it is. It's certainly not the same as calling someone a "bad person." However, I can concede that it's probably not helpful to speculate on someone's character, but to instead maintain focus on the quality of their actions, which in this case, of course, were poor. (Speculation on character was never the direction I wanted to take this--this was initially all about the actions. This rabbit trail developed in the course of this quarrel and serves only to distract from the real issue.)
The word was used in reference to the future. It was not about the past. I've never had any reason to be resentful of Arab in the past, in fact I never had anything against him. Nixing Nectarine? Well that changes things, doesn't it? After this point, a lot of people will harbor resentment.
On another note: Gargaj's message provided a lot of insight into the realities of running a major site that are probably not often appreciated by the consumers of those services. When the buck stops with you and you have to make decisions, certain people are always bound to be upset, since it's impossible to please everyone. It's probably quite a thankless job at times, which is why we can be all the more grateful to the people running the sites we enjoy so much. Does this fact at all change the nature of what has just happened with Nectarine? Not in the slightest. It's an essentially inconsiderate act.
Gargaj said:
MrsBeanbag said:
I think it's a real mistake when the reactions to the act are invoked as the CAUSE of the act. Like I mentioned earlier, I have only ever exchanged a few messages with Arab and they were all quite friendly. Never a single terse word. So framing this as though the frustration expressed over the shut-down is somehow the reason behind the shut-down... contravenes all Vulcan logic and implies a temporal loop that I just don't buy. I'm not denying that tensions may have existed between the admin and the users and that frustrations about this contributed to his desire to step out of the role---but the reactions here are about the act of the shut-down and shouldn't be cited as "the evidence" that the community was unhealthy.
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ok. you are right i did enjoy nectarine a lot, although i haven't been around so much lately. my experience there was generally positive. to clarify, the toxicity is more the attitude of entitlement i'm seeing here
1. A community builds something together involving the time and effort of many people over many years.
2. One individual gains complete control over the thing. Some have issues with how he manages it, but no matter, it still exists for everyone which is good, and he is appreciated for that.
3. Many people continue to contribute and build it over many years, spending hours upon hours upon it. The individual managing it is just one among the many contributors.
4 The individual decides he wants out. Maybe he has frustrations and weariness that no one else knows about. It's completely his call--he's not obligated to continue his role if he doesn't want to. He also knows that all the others who have built the thing alongside him continue to highly value the thing--after all, they all built it together, not him alone.
5. He doesn't initiate a conversation about his desire to end his management of the thing. He doesn't make an announcement ahead of time. He doesn't offer to turn the responsibility for the thing over to the others who highly value it and who, rather than feeling some entitlement about his toil, are ready to expend their own effort in the service of others.
6. He shuts down the collective work that has been produced by the efforts of many people.
7. People are angry, but not because he wanted out. They can sympathize with the fact that he might have needed a break. He has the complete right to stop expending the effort of managing the thing. But people are angry because he eliminated a cultural resource that does not belong solely to him, but which belongs to a large community, the many people who built it. It is not his alone; it never could have existed had it not been built by a community.
8. MrsBeanbag takes offense at the emotional reactions of these hurt people. Ignoring all the points they make, she construes the issue as one about the admin's "right" to stop managing the thing (a right that no had denied). Then she keeps invoking "entitlement" and the redundancy reaches a nearly comical stage.
9. Oldchap now asks her--once again--to identify the "entitlement." No one has said that the admin must continue providing a service. No one has said that he doesn't have a right to end his activities. In fact, many of those who feel injured by this act are themselves ready to expend new effort in order to preserve the cultural treasure.
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Quote:there it is.What he does owe this community
Yes, there it is. Someone with the role of trustee of a common good that is built by a community does have obligations to that community, the least of which is the passing of the torch, the facilitating of the transfer of responsibilities, etc. Spurning those obligations is a violation of that trust. I shouldn't have to again repeat the obvious, but Nectarine was built by many hands and no single individual can claim to "own" it.
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Quote:but his is "problematic". i get it.Our frustration is normal, expected, and legitimate
Wow, this just gets better and better. Did I ever say that his "emotions" were not valid? No. I said his actions were thoughtless. And even when we have unpleasant emotions, it is not license to act in a way that is hurtful to others. (Another lesson of adulthood.)
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But i never asked anyone to not have emotions. what i expect from a mature, healthy adult is for you to own them.
That's nice. I've owned my emotions all along. What's remarkable is that you'd rather censure those with injured feelings than hold the actor accountable for the actions to which those feelings are a response. It's really quite striking the degree to which you're motivated to shield him from responsibility in this.
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So don't try to tell me you didn't say it.
Nuance matters. Saying that someone's unwarranted and publicly insensitive action reflects a "character issue" is simply calling it what it is. It's certainly not the same as calling someone a "bad person." However, I can concede that it's probably not helpful to speculate on someone's character, but to instead maintain focus on the quality of their actions, which in this case, of course, were poor. (Speculation on character was never the direction I wanted to take this--this was initially all about the actions. This rabbit trail developed in the course of this quarrel and serves only to distract from the real issue.)
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i just don't understand resentment specifically, in this case. Resentment is usually something that stews for a long time, not something that suddenly pops up when someone takes a website offline.
The word was used in reference to the future. It was not about the past. I've never had any reason to be resentful of Arab in the past, in fact I never had anything against him. Nixing Nectarine? Well that changes things, doesn't it? After this point, a lot of people will harbor resentment.
On another note: Gargaj's message provided a lot of insight into the realities of running a major site that are probably not often appreciated by the consumers of those services. When the buck stops with you and you have to make decisions, certain people are always bound to be upset, since it's impossible to please everyone. It's probably quite a thankless job at times, which is why we can be all the more grateful to the people running the sites we enjoy so much. Does this fact at all change the nature of what has just happened with Nectarine? Not in the slightest. It's an essentially inconsiderate act.
Gargaj said:
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The comments here just reinforce my initial impression that this has been boiling for a long time, it just hasn't ran over yet
MrsBeanbag said:
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it is clear to me now from some of the reactions on here tonight that the community is actually extremely toxic and i don't blame anyone for running to the hills
I think it's a real mistake when the reactions to the act are invoked as the CAUSE of the act. Like I mentioned earlier, I have only ever exchanged a few messages with Arab and they were all quite friendly. Never a single terse word. So framing this as though the frustration expressed over the shut-down is somehow the reason behind the shut-down... contravenes all Vulcan logic and implies a temporal loop that I just don't buy. I'm not denying that tensions may have existed between the admin and the users and that frustrations about this contributed to his desire to step out of the role---but the reactions here are about the act of the shut-down and shouldn't be cited as "the evidence" that the community was unhealthy.
Second attempt, link fail first time...
Some fitting music while we wait for Arab to resurrect Nectarine (Thanks Makke):
http://www.archive.org/download/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
Some fitting music while we wait for Arab to resurrect Nectarine (Thanks Makke):
http://www.archive.org/download/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
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8. MrsBeanbag takes offense at the emotional reactions of these hurt people. Ignoring all the points they make, she construes the issue as one about the admin's "right" to stop managing the thing (a right that no had denied). Then she keeps invoking "entitlement" and the redundancy reaches a nearly comical stage.
Well no.. not offense at all.. confusion maybe. And how you can keep demanding i identify where the entitlement is and then carry on going on about somebody else's obligations. Denying the existence of a thing while waving it in front of my face.
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That's nice. I've owned my emotions all along. What's remarkable is that you'd rather censure those with injured feelings than hold the actor accountable for the actions to which those feelings are a response.
Blaming your feelings on somebody else is exactly NOT owning them.
i don't want to censure anyone for being upset, disappointed, sad &c because of any of this. That's your right. It's laying into someone's character and demanding they do things differently i have a problem with.
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framing this as though the frustration expressed over the shut-down is somehow the reason behind the shut-down... contravenes all Vulcan logic and implies a temporal loop that I just don't buy
I don't think we ever said that the frustration over the shutdown is the exact reason for it, we said it's representative / indicative of the real reason, which is that the creator of the community must've felt that the advantages and happy bits of running a site like that were outweighed by the negative / frustrating bits, and this reaction now seems to prove that point.
Noooo, noooo, nooo, I just saw the message on https://www.scenemusic.net/demovibes/ after the stream stopped. I'm almost listening to it daily for several hours!
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Contrary to this, shutting the site down has a very noticeable effect to everyone, and it gets a statement out that noone can ignore, and it gets people talking (see 4 pages here and it'll prolly continue for a while). It's a much more effective way of getting your point across.
It is also a much more effective way to piss off a community as well (hence the 4 paged discussion). Let's be honest here, shutting down a community site without discussing the issues that have risen with the its community won't solve anything but make matters worse.
While I've almost never used nectarine, I have to admit that I'm sad for this turn of events.
I also have to admire the fact that people are discussing the matter in a pretty civilized manner with complete sentences and nearly perfect grammar. Honestly I would have expected lots of shouting and sms-speak for some reason.
I also have to admire the fact that people are discussing the matter in a pretty civilized manner with complete sentences and nearly perfect grammar. Honestly I would have expected lots of shouting and sms-speak for some reason.
Damned, I suck at this (and no edit post function), third time is the charm?
Some fitting music while we wait for Arab to resurrect Nectarine (Thanks Makke):
http://www.archive.org/download/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
Some fitting music while we wait for Arab to resurrect Nectarine (Thanks Makke):
http://www.archive.org/download/I_cant_go_weewee_when_I_piss/i_cant_go_weewee.mp3
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Nectarine is no more
It's been fun while it lasted. Now give it a rest.
Don't mail me.
Look, i don't like it either. But for the time beeing it needed to be done. No data is lost, nor will be. Throwing shit in a discussion on pouet wont change a bit - nor will it speed up anything. Some issues need to be resolved regarding how things are done and this needs to happen now. I don't know how long it will take, but it can't wait anymore. For now please bear with me and be a bit patient. All i'm asking.
Now please have the decency to stop the point-by-point bickering and show some patience as requested.
+1
Maybe the panda needs more beer?
From the former demovibes...
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I personally wish to thank everyone who donated to the beer fund.
My love goes to: Starchaser, SJD, J. Br., speedis, G. Sk., T. Mu., C. St., B. Ca., N. Sz., minus, serpent, Tomacco, NerdN, Perennially, sefischer, chazbone, JamQue, Chainsaw, Siloki, jxx, Jimantha, HappyDude, Atom32k, Oldchap, S. Ra., A. Bj., SPACE, S. Ra., Y. Ch., mirrorbird, R. Iv., D. Ya., E. Sc, A. Ca, F. Co, Hideaway Studio, Arne, L. Ka., medinuxx, P. Co., Commodore, prowler, Buzzer, malmen, Accidental, F. Te. tubo, E. Dr. Arrakis and one anonymous donator :)
I'm keeping the beer fund open and i promise to use all the donations for beers :)
I really really hope Nectarine will come back. Reading the last section does seem Arab will make sure Nectarine will in some form will survive!
> For now please bear with me and be a bit patient. All i'm asking.
We already lost Nectarine once before due to hacking, so many music was collected and unfortunately kept private and because if that this feels like a great loss!
I really hope he will at least share the data. Why not just create a huge torrent will all original files and the conversions to mp3' if he is isn't willing to continue the site. An alternative would be given a select group of people control. If hosting is al issue then probably the community can find a solution!
I still have hope!
> For now please bear with me and be a bit patient. All i'm asking.
We already lost Nectarine once before due to hacking, so many music was collected and unfortunately kept private and because if that this feels like a great loss!
I really hope he will at least share the data. Why not just create a huge torrent will all original files and the conversions to mp3' if he is isn't willing to continue the site. An alternative would be given a select group of people control. If hosting is al issue then probably the community can find a solution!
I still have hope!
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Look, i don't like it either. But for the time beeing it needed to be done. No data is lost, nor will be. Throwing shit in a discussion on pouet wont change a bit - nor will it speed up anything. Some issues need to be resolved regarding how things are done and this needs to happen now. I don't know how long it will take, but it can't wait anymore. For now please bear with me and be a bit patient. All i'm asking.
This is a newly-added paragraph that didn't initially appear with the shut-down message. Seeing it now for the first time. I hope it represents something positive.