pouët.net

Clarification: They weren't actually sitting at the table when they were removed from the main part of the hall, just near enough to it I could see the first part.

TV Report Aktuelle Stunde Revision 2015 Its in german - sorry.

Kinda funny how they found two of the 64k groups working :)

lol. Assassins Creed...

What Gargaj said. And gasman. And jobe (except that the part about veganism is new to me).

(Also I find the stories told here about crazy stuff at parties amusing, although I don't think I would if it wasn't 20 years ago.)

First: <orga mode>What v3nom said. Puke stains? Someone is too drunk and/or behaves like an asshole? Go to the infodesk or in fact talk to _any organizer_ and we'll try to sort things out. We (going on a limb and speaking for every party organizer ever here) seriously try to make our party a pleasant place to stay, and will gladly help you if something or someone keeps you from enjoying it.</orga mode>

Then:


Very much THIS. And the idea of developing a Code of Conduct horrifies me because frankly spoken that whole idea is coming from a "culture" where one side actually thinks minorities are worth less and would love nothing more than reduce all those other people to glorified sandwich makers, and the other side really thinks it's ok to take a joke told in private or a questionable shirt, and unleash the Twitter Hate Mob on people to get them shunned, fired, and ruin their lives because fuck them, they really had it coming with THAT choice of cloth... oh wait, uh, we're the good ones! really!

Yes, there is sexism and to a lesser extent (hooray for being international) racism in the scene, and yes, Preacher's experiences must not be taken lightly. Then on the other hand can we please, PLEASE handle this in a "decent human being" way? Because what says "boys will be boys" more than "here's a set of rules explicitly for boys because we need leverage to throw you out"?

Also, is there a logical fallacy for wrongly assuming logical fallacies? Gargaj, nobody said "alcoholism/sexism in the demoscene? QUICK, LOOK, STARVING CHILDREN IN AFRICA" but actually "have you ever been outside? the scene is already a bit better than most of society in that regard, be careful not to overblow it. Nothing good can come out of that". I'd really like to raise that many women I know like demoparties for the fact that they actually feel safer there than anywhere else in public, but yeah, I'm fully aware that somebody will now point out that this doesn't count but single negative experiences totally do.

So. Please. It's ok to talk this through but please let's find a solution that relies on people being adults and self-healing. Except for punching Gamergaters in the crotch, I'd totally join that.

To be honest, it's more of a nagging constant annoyance (people rushing to troll when you ask about vegan food options at the party place, people in the audience shouting "why do you care" at Franky's Belgian beer seminar when he mentions the non-vegan status of some beers) than actual serious discrimination but still, that shit gets old fast.



is fine and dandy when people HAVE common sense to begin with. That said, a Code of Conduct should be a last resort. As a community we have pretty much assumed that everything's cool and not had much of a discussion about what isn't. I'm glad we're doing it now.

Did you read the rest of my post though? My point wasn't that the scene isn't a better place than, say, E3 ("I'm not suggesting there's a gigantic alcoholism problem"), but that there are issues, and "stay the fuck home" is the most incendiary way of dealing with them.

I think all these issues are very important, but I'm a bit surprised they get raised in a Revision thread, of all things. I've been to around 60 demoparties since 1997, and Revision 2015 was probably the most "civilised" one when it comes to parties of this size.

I talked to Dfox about this, and I think it's pretty much because the law of large numbers - with more people, it's more likely that 1) someone runs into an issue and 2) that someone actually stands up and mentions an issue they encountered. As Jobe said the problems can occur anywhere, just sometimes not talked about.

I think it's actually getting better.

Speaking for myself, I definitely drank less than before (and our whole beamteam fridge was conspicuously empty this year :), and I also encountered way less dead drunk people than I'd have expected. So yeah, what Dipswitch said.

Same thing with the vegan food stand that was almost universally appraised. The only people in here doing vegan jokes were obviously trolling, and granted, when I got food there I had one discussion a la "what's that?" "Pakora from the vegan stand" "Uh, why are you eating that?" "Because it's tasty" "...", but in general that topic showed quite some matureness that I also didn't expect.

All of this plus the release quality this year gives me quite some hope, and that's why I'm so wary about jumping to any conclusions or measures here.

(also Gargaj: you could easily have made that point without going all "someone's wrong on the internet" first :)

This discussion actually makes me really hopeful for the demoscene's ability to handle troubles. Sure, we might disagree on some issues, but lookie here now - a kazillion posts and nobody has said anything overly stupid or defaulted to any kind of gorilla behaviour. I would have sworn the day would never come but it seems we are able to have a polite online discussion, which makes me so happy I can hardly contain myself.

On ladies and demoscenery: there's an issue as there will be with 90% male subcultures, but I do think we are improving every day and are actually doing better than most tech cultures, as kb and gargaj have both elaborated on. It does make me worry a little for my master plan of pulling a Poo-Brain 2.0 and sending in a ton of my students since they are about 50% female, usually around 23-28 and well, they tend to get quite agitated over idiot male behaviour.

On vegan food I am a vegetarian and have been for years and since I grew up with trolls I have almost forgotten how getting hurt by comments like that feel. My usual strategy evolves around going directly into discussing someone's mom and her love for meat, especially my meat. That strategy might not work for the more fainthearted though :) If you are more sensitive than I, please do come and eat with me, I looooove eating stuff, and I will happily insult anyones mom for you :)

If I've focused on the negatives during my past few posts, it's mostly because I believe the negatives are largely ignored. Also, I may have made the mistake of Internetting while angry. Overall, Revision was an amazing experience and I'm glad that I was there. Since I mentioned the vegan point of view, I also have to add that it was stunningly awesome that the vegan food stand was even there. That's more than I expect from any event. And yes, we HAVE matured as a scene, in many ways. I've seen that myself.

Let's appreciate what we have, but let's also recognize what we don't yet have. Failing to do either leads to an unbalanced view of things.

Well, this all seems like a damn good thing to put in a Code of Conduct.

It might seem like this is just stating the obvious - but I think that having this sort of thing down in writing somewhere official might be exactly what people need, to be reassured that the "it's a party, deal with it" attitude isn't universal to all visitors and organisers. This isn't just about handing people a list of rules to say "don't puke on the floor and don't sexually harass people, kthx" - it's about sending a message that these are the values we stand for, everyone is welcome, and we care about fixing these problems.

That night at Breakpoint 2005 when Metalvotze were pissing around with a microphone keeping everyone awake, and nearly drove me away from German demo parties forever? What I didn't mention is that A Certain Member Of The Beamteam was happily joining in with them. :-) I bring this up not to open old wounds, but to point out that things are not as clear-cut as they seem - especially to people who aren't part of the demoscene clique. The message I got that night as an Easter-party-n00b was "Breakpoint organisers care about these people's enjoyment of the party more than yours, and if you don't like it then maybe this place isn't for you." Would a Code of Conduct have changed my perspective? Probably. Probably not enough to prompt me to stop being Reticent British Guy and actually do something about it, but every little helps.



Yep, I share that concern, and that's why I only have a hazy idea of what a realistic code of conduct for a demo party would actually look like: the guidelines and standards that work for a tech conference certainly wouldn't transfer directly to a demo party. ("No pictures of naked chicks in demos" is a harder sell than "no pictures of naked chicks in your powerpoint slides".) The people who deal with these things for tech conferences would probably be happy to help draft something that isn't a total train-crash (cp. the "we're surprised to hear this is a problem" one mentioned in Sole's blog post) but I have to wonder whether the culture of something like Revision is too far removed from what they're used to.

Probably true, guilty as charged - just don't let the phrasing throw you off the content :)

That's probably my fault, sorry... I should make it clear that none of my "bro culture" comments are targeted specifically at Revision. It's a general theme that's been bothering me for the last few months, and I considered starting a new thread for it, but Gargaj's post nailed my feelings so perfectly that I figured it was worth keeping the momentum going here.

Perhaps these issues should have their own thread instead of the Revision thread. I guess the main reason no one has started one yet is the expected Pouetization effect :)

the hell is going on here? just speak up in the very moment if you dont like something. talk to the orgas or to the people and use common fucking sense. or has common sense become some kind of super power nowadays?
regarding the vegan stuff. i used to be vegan for years among metalvotze of all. they made fun of me, i made fun of them - we all laughed. Bitbreaker even bought some vegan sausages for me so i wouldnt starve at the BBQ session. Same goes for other members who didnt drink alcohol or whatever.

regarding women feeling uncomfortable. i brought several girlfriends to demparties and all were cool with it. also, they didnt hang out with assholes.

just stop the whining you pussies, seriously.

P.s.: "At least demoscene is relatively drug-free community" when i read that i couldnt stop laughing.

I'd say, only ask for tolerance when you also can bring up some on your own. If being tolerant just results in people complaining and asking for too much, the tolerance might be out of place. It is as with children, if you give them too much freedom, they become spoilt brats.
Just for those who haven't met me on one of the many parties: Due to the high amount of growth hormones in nowadays meat, i am tall and of muscular type and have a huge dick. I was a breakpoint orga and convinced quite some people to behave, or at least ended up carrying them into the showers for a proper vomiting experience. Also, i am an active member, so i am allowed to ask others to shut the fuck up, as i am the giver, not the taker. I did not attend Revision, as i am a father, there's that thing named responsibility, that makes one easily forget about the unimportant "problems" in this world. Be there a vegan stand or not, one has food at least. In case the supermarket vis-a-vis is there to buy food which suits one's needs. I'd just do the same to get my meat and not come up with a discrimination drame if there'd be no meat stand. Are we all already that retarded that we can't take care of our own needs anymore?

Ragnarok

Now this seems to be offtopic reading all the latest comments but: Revision was great :)

Sensenstahl, were you there btw?

Gargaj: I was :)

\o/