pouët.net

Sure do. I think NeHe is great. Let's face it: new blood is a good thing (yeah, my opinion only).

But kiddies learning NeHe quickly realize that they only can display a couple k trianlges (if that) and wonder how real performance is done. Or at least should be - if not, they don't belong in the scene anyway ;) BUT the one that do wonder and try out tricks and bits are heartly welcome.

And one other thing: can someone blame designers for trying out coding? I mean - if there are coder colors there should be designer code, right? I know I don't want to wait for coders to do the things my mind creates, so why not do it myself if nobody is at hand? "I don't push enough polys" and "My code is not strong enough"? Go chew on a lemon! Or gimme your engine ;)

making general-purpose-engines is one of the main things that makes performance go berserk :)

and i was in no way saying that people who dont know how to do the proper optimizing (which also exists of general programming knowledge that takes years to pick up) just shouldnt code.. my machine is fast enough and i'd rather see something at 35fps than not at all :)

i was just trying to explain..

Inopia, of course people with lack of talent shouldn't do design but... does ability to code have anything to do with that? The best demos imho are those created by people that are both designers and coders "in one". You just can't generalise the way you did :)

It's easy to optimize throwable code, far less to ptimize generic code. there is more value in generic code than throwable code, in that throwable code is typically for 1 + 1 use, while generic code enables 1 + n + nexpected uses.

It's easy to optimize platform dedicated code, far less to optimize portable code. there is more value in portable code than platform dedicated code, in that platform dedicated code suffers bit rot as platforms become unsanitary, while portable code enables 1 + n + future uses.

optimization == uglyness +deception + abscence of life

regarding the demoscene and the entertainment industry optimization is mandatory (when creating entertainment software for let's say GC and PS2 one would create an abstract piece of code functioning on top of a highly optimized platform implementation) and highly generic code is somewhat obsolete.

democode + future uses == hahahahahaha you loser

I generally try to make my code as general as possible while keeping it as simple as possible to get the job done.

Has worked great so far... and simple code is easier to understand is easier to maintain and besides often works faster (if you don't mistake "simple" for "stupid", that is :)

nous sommes les rois de la fête
nous sommes les rebelles
sauvages et fiers de l'être
nous sommes les rebelles

nous rejetons le système
et les prisons nous attendent
nous sommes les rebelles
nous ne nous laisserons pas prendre
(et vive les bérus)

plek: Well I just went with what Chaos said. According to him, Adrenalin is coded well, just a bit enthousiastic on the polycount.
He can judge that better than myself I guess.

And I couldn't have said it better myself: "it didn't LOOK like they were drawing too much per frame"...
Perhaps they also 'drew' too much stuff that was not visible.
Or their models are more detailed than can be seen with the naked eye... In other words, they use more polys than necessary.
I think that's quite a challenge for a modeler anyway... He has to try and keep the polycount down, while still making a very detailed object.
I believe there's an article on http://gamershq.madonion.com on that, written by the MadOnion modeler.

And 2 more notes in general:

With 'coding as art' I didn't mean coders making gfx, models, palettes etc... I prefer some more aesthetic stuff myself, by people that know what they're doing :)
I meant the code itself being 'art', because of the way it is optimized... Doing things that we thought impossible before, perhaps.

Also, ofcourse I welcome new coders to the scene. However, I wish they would strive for perfection, in the tradition of the scene.
If you just modified a NeHe tut, perhaps you're not ready to release something yet :)
But we all have to start somewhere... Even the best coders started with simple, buggy and slow programs, I'm sure of that :)
Just keep coding, learning, experimenting, and keep the quality up :)

so many questions, so little time...

Why is this bloboid reflecting a purple galaxy when there are no purple galaxies around?
Is this additive gouraud trying to emulate large ambient term or what?
Why isn't this (accelerated!) scene shaded at all?
Are those some magical holographic bumps that turn into holes and back every 180 degrees?
Aren't coders supposed to know something about physics?

...trying to understand, but can not. blackness. flying. looking for my brain.

216: That last line is the best piece of scenepoetry ever! :D

scene and poetry don't mix.

they never have and they never will

then let's remove "scene"

"thats bad code."
-- "no, it's poetry!"
"no, it's bullshit"
-- "i knew you wouldn't understand."
"grrrrmph. glVertex bla bla batching bla."
-- "when will you ever learn that the demo scene is not about code any more."

I feel a good oldfashioned group-war coming on :)
Dezin/sgeneboetry groups vs. 'real coders(tm)' :)

i don't

i want

inopia, even tho "Coders usually don't give a fuck about how something looks" some coders do give a shit about how fuck looks.

Yes! Even if I am mainly a coder now, I want to draw, I want to paint, I want to track, I want to do my own designed demos with my own theme that I keep in mind :)

Ok,. sure. Usually most coders say "Wow I did that effect running ultrafast" and it looks ugly =)

But I wanna draw ;-)

droid: I know, that's why the word 'usually' is in my post.

Art is cheap stuff that becomes valuable because of too many idiots.

Kitsch rules :)

Now theres yet another new debate.

I care what my stuff looks like.
Too bad i have a dutch sense of what looks cool.


Dutch Color S(c)heme all the way!

well ile..

when applied in a slightly tasteful manner (i say ptct is a good example) i prefer the dutch colorscheme above all this silly neo "design" crap

Et j'vous préviens qu'si y'a manif,
arrêtez-moi tout de suite,
venez-voir là où j'habite,
dans ma maison sans calife.
Où il fait bon préparer
des chants pour manifester,
avec des paroles anarchistes
et des refrains je-m'enfoutistes.
Mais faudra pas venir pleurer
si c'est bien ensoleillé
et qu'on préfère picoler
à la terrasse d'un café.

then again, aren't you dutch

"I meant the code itself being 'art', because of the way it is optimized..."

Scali, I get your point, however... thinking this way you could claim "anything that is well done is art". I think art should express something and that's what perfectly elegant and optimised routine doesn't do :) Even though it may inspire others as we all know.