Open sourcing pouet.net ?
category: offtopic [glöplog]
I think there ought to be an article out there on the internet which is even more relevant than kusmas link. Unfortunately I couldn't find it. The title should be something like:
"Why a few good people, not your whole team, should write the core of your thing."
or
"Why you don't open source your thing until the core is in place."
Did the people calling for open sourcing 2.0 at this stage consider what a quagmire that might turn into? Gargaj is probably calling this correctly, especially since he says "just a little more time". IMO.
"Why a few good people, not your whole team, should write the core of your thing."
or
"Why you don't open source your thing until the core is in place."
Did the people calling for open sourcing 2.0 at this stage consider what a quagmire that might turn into? Gargaj is probably calling this correctly, especially since he says "just a little more time". IMO.
Hm. Okay.
There's one thing I can't let slide.
See, I guess it's okay using the changelog as a metric of performance, it's as good as a measuring tool as any really, although that does leave the question certain features or changes came from after 2008, but it does bring an important reminder: We never thanked Santa for taking the time to add features to Pouet during his busy schedule on Christmas Eve.
I'm also okay with you pointing out that I'm the longest running admin, although I'm not sure what you meant by that, and while it is true that "most on pouet happened before 2007" as far as original code goes, you can check the stats from 2007 to 2013 to see that the site got a wee but busier, but I guess maintenance jobs don't scale with popularity. Also it's okay to misunderstand the word "maintainer", I guess you're angry.
It is true that a year ago we had a brief email conversation about the same subject, granted, it was about the same topic and we said the exact same things, and not much happened. I just wish you would've answered my last email where I suggested the exact same thing (quote: "I restart and finish Pouet 2 somewhere after Revision") I suggested on the last page. (btw Revision is like Mekka only on a different location, I'm not sure if you heard of it. You've been away for a while after all.)
It is also true that the quality of 2.0 code is debatable, sure, I'm no magician, but either way, thanks for changing a few things without asking or telling me first, and don't worry about the shit you broke on the live Pouet, I already fixed those too thanks to Tomoya and Saga for letting me know on a beautiful Sunday morning. I'd love to continue working on it, by the way, but my login for the Pouet SSH/SQL doesn't work anymore, although they did about two hours ago. (Btw there's a term for "giving up your ownership" but let's not get into semantics.)
Oh and also, please watch out with using the term "benevolent dictator" - dubmood seems to have a problem with it, although to me it seems less like a dictator and more like the biological parent of a kid who put it up for adoption 8 years ago and now wants it back after realizing the kid is about to graduate.
But see I could let all of this slide due to the heat of the moment and all that. Except for this one thing.
See I'm all for a heated argument and ignoring each others' points, but something just rubs me the wrong way about accusing me and "my friends" about sockpuppetry. The thing is, yeah, I have friends in the scene, I talk to them often, and they sometimes agree, sometimes don't agree. I often let them know what I'm planning, so they over time might have gotten used to my plans about Pouet and consequently agree with the wrong thing. But the allegation that I would go around on IRC on public channels trying to raise support for my otherwise valid point is not only ridiculous (and easily refutable by asking actual people who are on IRC) but actually quite insulting, not just to me, but towards the people I happen to know from this thread, so while I know you don't care much about the public opinion anymore, I would like you to retract that unproven accusation towards the actual community immediately,
you
smarmy
overzealous
out-of-touch
cunt.
There's one thing I can't let slide.
See, I guess it's okay using the changelog as a metric of performance, it's as good as a measuring tool as any really, although that does leave the question certain features or changes came from after 2008, but it does bring an important reminder: We never thanked Santa for taking the time to add features to Pouet during his busy schedule on Christmas Eve.
I'm also okay with you pointing out that I'm the longest running admin, although I'm not sure what you meant by that, and while it is true that "most on pouet happened before 2007" as far as original code goes, you can check the stats from 2007 to 2013 to see that the site got a wee but busier, but I guess maintenance jobs don't scale with popularity. Also it's okay to misunderstand the word "maintainer", I guess you're angry.
It is true that a year ago we had a brief email conversation about the same subject, granted, it was about the same topic and we said the exact same things, and not much happened. I just wish you would've answered my last email where I suggested the exact same thing (quote: "I restart and finish Pouet 2 somewhere after Revision") I suggested on the last page. (btw Revision is like Mekka only on a different location, I'm not sure if you heard of it. You've been away for a while after all.)
It is also true that the quality of 2.0 code is debatable, sure, I'm no magician, but either way, thanks for changing a few things without asking or telling me first, and don't worry about the shit you broke on the live Pouet, I already fixed those too thanks to Tomoya and Saga for letting me know on a beautiful Sunday morning. I'd love to continue working on it, by the way, but my login for the Pouet SSH/SQL doesn't work anymore, although they did about two hours ago. (Btw there's a term for "giving up your ownership" but let's not get into semantics.)
Oh and also, please watch out with using the term "benevolent dictator" - dubmood seems to have a problem with it, although to me it seems less like a dictator and more like the biological parent of a kid who put it up for adoption 8 years ago and now wants it back after realizing the kid is about to graduate.
But see I could let all of this slide due to the heat of the moment and all that. Except for this one thing.
See I'm all for a heated argument and ignoring each others' points, but something just rubs me the wrong way about accusing me and "my friends" about sockpuppetry. The thing is, yeah, I have friends in the scene, I talk to them often, and they sometimes agree, sometimes don't agree. I often let them know what I'm planning, so they over time might have gotten used to my plans about Pouet and consequently agree with the wrong thing. But the allegation that I would go around on IRC on public channels trying to raise support for my otherwise valid point is not only ridiculous (and easily refutable by asking actual people who are on IRC) but actually quite insulting, not just to me, but towards the people I happen to know from this thread, so while I know you don't care much about the public opinion anymore, I would like you to retract that unproven accusation towards the actual community immediately,
you
smarmy
overzealous
out-of-touch
cunt.
gasman: i assume analogue looked at the changelog when you did some fixes during my watch i credited you there (i think you are listed on 3 lines). but like i mentioned to analogue in my previous post, gargaj stopped updating it when he took over.
my suggestion: use banhammer on analogue and then open source pouet v3.0
Quote:
I'd love to continue working on it, by the way, but my login for the Pouet SSH/SQL doesn't work anymore, although they did about two hours ago.
Quote:
my suggestion: use banhammer on analogue and then open source pouet v3.0
where is your democracy people?!
I don't think the french ever heard about democracy. Let them eat cake..
defiance, good start for democracy is using a guillotine for the french aristocrats.
Well, good we're being dealt with!
re:
Gargaj did post about how they can work together.
Gargaj also explained why he doesn't think it makes sense to continue development of 0.9 and thus why he forked off 2.0.
Analogue has not explained why a fresh start with 2.0 is a bad idea for any reason other than he claims ownership of this project.
In the end, what is this about?
Is it about who owns what code, who can boss around what project?
Or is it about how Pouet will be made more functional, and who is willing and able to do that in a collegial and maintainable way?
If you were hiring for this job, who would you go with, someone with a proven track record of sweeping up the crud on the floor, or someone who moves onto another project without arranging for the safekeeping of the previous one?
In the end, what is important? Who is in charge of a project, or whether that project continues to function and be a resource for the scene?
Who owns a community resource like this, its founder, or the people who put time and work and love into it?
In the end, is it about what solution you favor, or who you support, or about the survival about a portal to the scene? And this is far from unimportant because folks keep coming here. It even beats out scene.org.
Alexa Traffic Rank:
pouet.net - 203,554
demozoo.org - 10,034,351
demoparty.net - 12,248,390
csdb.dk - 218,685
bitfellas.org - 1,135,034
demoscene.tv - 3,766,797
capped.tv - 5,307,339
demoscene.us - 7,657,341
scene.org - 286,353
Feel free to tell me Alexa rankings aren't relevant. If so, suggest another way to evaluate traffic.
Thank you.
Quote:
follow kb's suggestion and talk properly with analogue about how his ideas can work with yours.
Gargaj did post about how they can work together.
Quote:
But you know what, here's a modest proposal: I'll set a deadline, a FINAL HARD DEADLINE to finish Pouet2.0 (and not years off, not even months), at which point I do the aforementioned switch, and afterwards you can shove out the (by that point obsoleted) 0.9 to your favorite github account and we can come back to talk about whether opensource 2.0 is a good idea.
Gargaj also explained why he doesn't think it makes sense to continue development of 0.9 and thus why he forked off 2.0.
Quote:
The reason 0.9 is not being developed (except for small cosmetic things) is the exact same reason - we're talking about 300MB of broken content that needs to be fixed, but since the 0.9 code is an unrefactored disaster of ~170 redundant files with no distinction in GPC Magic Quotes, no abstraction in SQL, no possibility to easily convert to Unicode, etc... it's near impossible to fix all this.
Analogue has not explained why a fresh start with 2.0 is a bad idea for any reason other than he claims ownership of this project.
In the end, what is this about?
Is it about who owns what code, who can boss around what project?
Or is it about how Pouet will be made more functional, and who is willing and able to do that in a collegial and maintainable way?
If you were hiring for this job, who would you go with, someone with a proven track record of sweeping up the crud on the floor, or someone who moves onto another project without arranging for the safekeeping of the previous one?
In the end, what is important? Who is in charge of a project, or whether that project continues to function and be a resource for the scene?
Who owns a community resource like this, its founder, or the people who put time and work and love into it?
In the end, is it about what solution you favor, or who you support, or about the survival about a portal to the scene? And this is far from unimportant because folks keep coming here. It even beats out scene.org.
Alexa Traffic Rank:
pouet.net - 203,554
demozoo.org - 10,034,351
demoparty.net - 12,248,390
csdb.dk - 218,685
bitfellas.org - 1,135,034
demoscene.tv - 3,766,797
capped.tv - 5,307,339
demoscene.us - 7,657,341
scene.org - 286,353
Feel free to tell me Alexa rankings aren't relevant. If so, suggest another way to evaluate traffic.
Thank you.
Also, I'll opinionate in a more out-on-a-limb way and say that I think there is need to resort to namecalling including using "French" as an insult.
Because is this about individuals, or this is about Pouet?
Because is this about individuals, or this is about Pouet?
ACK That should have read NO NEED to resort to name =calling.
*facepalm*
Apologies.
*facepalm*
Apologies.
Quote:
This.If you were hiring for this job, who would you go with, someone with a proven track record of sweeping up the crud on the floor, or someone who moves onto another project without arranging for the safekeeping of the previous one?
How French of you!
LOL, I didn't imagine this would end in a flamewar :)
Come on guys, let's work together, not one against the other.
I think it's perfectly fine if Gargaj gives a deadline for pouet 2.0, that's what I'm asking since my first reply on this thread.
Come on guys, let's work together, not one against the other.
I think it's perfectly fine if Gargaj gives a deadline for pouet 2.0, that's what I'm asking since my first reply on this thread.
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LOL, I didn't imagine this would end in a flamewar :)
Welcome to Pouet!
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Come on guys, let's work together, not one against the other.
Lol, welcome to Pouet!
and it only took 7 pages before the racist prejudicial comments against french popped out.
Nothing personal against you Gargaj, but a benevolent dictator would be glad to let other people in on the decisions and not panic and bring in his fan-club from the Nordic conspiracy to defend his dictatorship. just saying...
oh and what okkie is saying. but as much as it would be very classy for pouet to go down in a troll-provoked flame war, I still would prefer an analogue gargaj co-dictatorship and pouet to stay blue. or what about a flat hierarchy?
oh and what okkie is saying. but as much as it would be very classy for pouet to go down in a troll-provoked flame war, I still would prefer an analogue gargaj co-dictatorship and pouet to stay blue. or what about a flat hierarchy?
(My origin is irrelevant, but I am not from one of the Nordic countries, fyi.
And I spoke against ad hominem responses.)
And I spoke against ad hominem responses.)
As a French, I vote Gargaj.
He is not an IRC friend, he is just somebody I've seen actively helping in half of the demoparties I've been (Function, Solskogen and Kindergarden), spending most of his time making things work instead of getting drunk. He also helped me keeping some Atari demoscene related Wikipedia articles using his Wikipedia-Fu.
I think his proposal was sane, and just waiting a month or so for a preview of the code, or like KB suggested a 'read only' version of the source code, was a good idea.
About code ownership, I guess Pouet is Analogue's baby - as the sole maintainer of the Defence Force infrastructure/Oric scene related stuff I can understand that -, but if at some point you decided to give away your responsibilities and let other people handle it, then you have to accept that it's not your anymore; it's like when your children get adult. Just deal with it.
[French]
Alors maintenant tu lui rend son acces, et vous discutez en adultes responsables.
A mon avis Gargaj a autant envie que toi que Pouet survive et se développe, au lieu de lui tirer dans les pattes fait quelque chose de constructif.
[/French]
He is not an IRC friend, he is just somebody I've seen actively helping in half of the demoparties I've been (Function, Solskogen and Kindergarden), spending most of his time making things work instead of getting drunk. He also helped me keeping some Atari demoscene related Wikipedia articles using his Wikipedia-Fu.
I think his proposal was sane, and just waiting a month or so for a preview of the code, or like KB suggested a 'read only' version of the source code, was a good idea.
About code ownership, I guess Pouet is Analogue's baby - as the sole maintainer of the Defence Force infrastructure/Oric scene related stuff I can understand that -, but if at some point you decided to give away your responsibilities and let other people handle it, then you have to accept that it's not your anymore; it's like when your children get adult. Just deal with it.
[French]
Alors maintenant tu lui rend son acces, et vous discutez en adultes responsables.
A mon avis Gargaj a autant envie que toi que Pouet survive et se développe, au lieu de lui tirer dans les pattes fait quelque chose de constructif.
[/French]
inb4 pulling the plug
Well, the first pony arrived - let's wait for more :D
I don't like where this is going.
+10000 Dbug.
That said, on Pouet I do hope nous pouvons discuter comme adultes responsables, le même si on posté les petits chevaux dessins.
(;
That said, on Pouet I do hope nous pouvons discuter comme adultes responsables, le même si on posté les petits chevaux dessins.
(;
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by the way, but my login for the Pouet SSH/SQL doesn't work anymore
Quote:
That said, on Pouet I do hope nous pouvons discuter comme adultes responsables
Doesn't seem like it, at least not from the .fr side ;)