pouët.net

ruari: exactly, it's not so different from what we already do - it's just a lot more transparent, and maybe a bit more flexible.

I like it from the perspective that it is very transparent what happens if the party isn't funded. OTOH you need to book the party place in advance etc so it wouldn't work if people usually decide late.

I've seen a few parties with too few people and the organizers more or less going bankrupt. Not a pretty thing :( Would be nice to know in advance so they could have cut their losses. Selling ticket in advance helps but if not enough is sold, kickstarter or similar makes it easier to give money back.

but that example proves that it's much more important to make sure your party organisation is realistic than this whole hassle of crowdfunding mumbojumbo for an extra dime. nevertheless, prepaying visitors obviously is a good thing to a) get an indication of the # of visitors and b) to have some preparty cash. but some parties been doing that for years already without the crowdfunding "innovation":P

A good idea, if done right (imho). Anything that limits access to releases is a bad idea though as it kills the "scene outreach" agenda somewhat. I'd certainly be willing to pay some extra for a t-shirt, stickers or some other memorabilia.

The idea of having several tiers of party awesomeness sounds great :)

Limiting access to releases is a stupid idea that is also implausible.

PPV streams, however, reimburse the organizers for a feature they have to invest time and resources in to please people who are NOT paying the entrance fee.

"Selling ticket in advance helps but if not enough is sold, kickstarter or similar makes it easier to give money back. "

makes me wonder...

to cut out something like kickstarter taking its cut, there surely must be online escrow services out there for this kind of thing that maybe take less of a cut?

Speaking as a bone-idle sofascener, i'd happily contribute a few quid towards a reliable livestream.

shit, we sometimes have danish shadowparties, we'd pay 50 euros for a livestream with no worries at all :)

Paying for live streaming is not very good for outreaching, but I understand bandwidth doesn't come cheap.

i totally agree that limiting access to releases is a bad idea. Not sure on the PPV streams though - a good livestream could be good outreach. Then again maybe only sceners tune in, and you don't get a good idea of what a party is like from the stream except during the compos.

ppv to watch the demoscene party? worst idea ever.
if you want to get some money - stick to the donations and/or crowd-funding.

if you're not willing to shell out 2-3 (not 50) euros for a stream, then you dont deserve to see it.

Streams are also cool for pointing people at parties who are not really into the scene. That's why having a pre-party donation run for setting up the stream might be a wiser choice.

i would personally rather donate 20 euros (for a good party) than to be forced to pay 1 euro for ppv stream. it's just a mental difference - willing donation vs forced payment.

also, I'm afraid that (besides the revision and assembly) visitor count is rather low. when there is a visitor counter, it's usually below 10. (maybe ziphoid or someone from scenesat can be more precise). of course, I'm not talking about the short peak 30 mins during the demo compo - which is usually non-watchable even on the HD streams.
introduce ppv, and it will be 0. even nic0 won't be paying for it, believe me. or make a test run (e.g. at this years' function), is you don't believe me.

and, after all, we're all hobbyists and we do this for a fun. if you're into it for a profit (and I know that you aren't, gargaj), then you're in the wrong "business".

it's not about profit. it's about more income to invest in the party in the first place.

i think streams are a bad idea in general. let them lazy fucks come to the party itself if they wanna see releases. we're organizing demoPARTIES, not demoshows.

i can understand why someone in australia would appreciate a party stream, but i'd like to invite ziphoid here to share the entertaining stats of the function video stream's geographic distribution, a.k.a. "the common example."

The return of the LD caller!

Thought about PPV streams in 2010 when we were budgeting Revision. It's certainly doable but we threw the idea way because charging for a service means that people will be pissed if it goes down or is unstable or anything. At least that's our theory.

I'd LOVE to charge sofasceners a couple of euros for the stream, since providing it is also quite a bit of work for us (and the equipment costs money as well).

This year, we'll try it with a "voluntary donation" button and see what happens...

I think a voluntary donation system is probably for the best... because as dfox said, if you *have* to pay for the stream, people will flip their shit for a somewhat valid reason rather than just making themselves look silly by complaining about a free service.

i suppose you need immense willpower when paying the entrance fee at the door then too. i don't buy this, and i don't buy the "oh no but then there will be complaints"-argument either. as far as i can recall noone demanded a ticket refund for the compos being late or the toilets being unclean or the weather being crap.

there is truth in that there's a psychological importance here, but i think it's the other way around: what kind of person feels it's an outrageous demand to shell out ~2 euros (multiply by say 50 viewers and optimally you have covered ziphoid's airfare) for something that they know helps a non-profit cause?

@gargaj, as I say - it's a mental difference. again, speaking for myself, i would personally rather donate to "ziphoid's ticked", than to pay per view. never did that, for anything!! therefor, I won't be starting now (as a old fart). it's not a despite, it's just something that I'm not used to do; while at the same time me being very active at donations.

regarding the entrance fee vs ppv fee, that's quite a difference. as someone said - it's not a demowatching, is a demoparty. watching a stream can't be classified as a same experience!!!

I wanted to write more about that yesterday, but didn't want to help this discussion grow further. but anyway, here it is:

if you want something more from your party, increase the entrance fee!! if I'm paying few hundred euros for a return trip, close to hundred euros per night for a hotel (in germany and finland), then a +/-10 euros for a ticket won't make a difference at all.

if you think that i'm full of crap, just look at the assembly: they does have a quite pricey tickets and yet, they're doing quite well. (yes, I'm aware of the oldskool discount, thanks for asking). in addition to that, they currently have a best live stream coverage which is probably a part of their marketing tool. if people see what is going on there, more of them will be teased to come to the party next time.

on the other hand, demoscene people doesn't care if the party have a latest beamer or loudest PA - they're there to socialise and to party. (neither of which you can have by watching the stream)

and believe me, all of the 10 people that end up watching those poor streams (showing the empty hall while the party is outside), would like to come to that specific party, but are unable to. why would otherwise someone spend the time glued to the screen, watching dodgy stream trying to experience at least 1% of a party they're actually missing?

and let's get real. since "the gathering" is in process, please take a look at the streams, experience "the experience" and please let me know how much would you be willing to pay for it. ;))
(btw, my "favorite" is the main stream - http://www.gathering.org/tg13/no/webcam/ - it really feels like you're there. NOT.)

i don't get your logic. donating is okay but a minimum level of required "donation" (which might be calibrated so that it's optimal for the organizing budget) is not? or you'd be okay if we just change the text on the button from "ppv" to "donate"? :)

noone is arguing that watching the party on the stream is the same experience as being present in person (which is why i'd suggest ppv pricing to be low enough to be almost nominal), but then putting up a stream is an expense of resources the partygoers (remember: your primary audience) never going to see, because they don't need a stream, they're THERE. and forgive the phrasing but the part that blows my mind is that you ever even remotely consider increasing the entrance fee. you're taxing people who are THERE (and bothered to travel and provide the atmosphere) for a feature that doesn't make a difference to them, just so you can provide service to people who are NOT THERE.

the comparisons with ASM and TG are incredibly ill-fitting too - they're really not on the budget level of ANY demoparty out there (and i'd wager that includes even Revision); consider small parties (i.e. the remaining 90%) where sometimes even getting an internet connection is effort (because e.g. like KG it's out in the woods or something) and the budget is sometimes just about tight enough to break even. on that level, every single euro helps.

i don't buy the "marketing tool" argument either, it sounds eeriely like "software piracy is just spreading the word". if they can experience the spectacular parts of the party (i.e. the compos, seminars, etc) through a stream for no cost, why would they invest in traveling etc. the next time? they got a much better price-ratio. i know most of us prefer being at the party (if nothing else, out of tradition, i suppose), but then we know the people we look forward to see. from the perspective of someone who hasn't been to one, a stream is as good as a solution as any, and they dont even have to sleep on the floor after the compos end. remember, we shifted to a generation where people watch demos on youtube instead of hardware because "aint nobody got time for that" and "computers are expensive".

From my perspective as an orga as well as a visitor I'd be happy with the option to pay tickets in advance just because one doesn't have to klimper around with bargeld at the infodesk.

As a matter of fact we only pre-sale tickets for Nordlicht on the web, many of the party features are funded that way in advance. Pretty much a kickstarter without the need for kickstarter ;) We've been discussing pro's and con's of crowdfunding a party prior to our first one last year but other sceners showed so much interest and support that we decided it was not necessary to involve a third-party platform, all it would do is cost us more without any real benefit, since we knew we couldn't sell more than a certain amount of tickets. Support tickets are a great way of receiving extra funds for party features, but again this can be done without a kickstarter campaign.

We do not yet know if we can pull off a videostream, but if we do then it'll be free to watch ;)