The scene, intellectual property and double standards
category: offtopic [glöplog]
Long rant, but I'm just tired of the hypocrisy.
I've used samples from other peoples' modules, sampled commercial music, tv-series, movies and random material off the Internet, referenced or plagiarized stuff someone else has done, made 3D models using references, taken bitmap fonts off "free" font sites and used them in scrollers, used pirated software, seen pirated tv-series and movies, listened to pirated music and posted cool quotes on Twitter without stating sources.
Most likely stolen other things as well.
Both morally and legally I'm a thief. I violate other peoples' intellectual property for my own gain, be it financial or social. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes you'd have to know to know.
I've made money off it in competitions, and gained respect and fame in the scene by doing it. I even got a scene.org award nomination for a soundtrack based on pieces from a couple of rap a cappellas (that I've pirated as well).
But...
I've been pissed and started a thread here on Pouet when someone (in my eyes) sold my music as part of a compilation.
I've written Apple to get a "keygen music" player taken off their App Store because I found out I had a track of mine in it (which to be fair probably contained samples I didn't create myself).
I've probably written my fair share of prod comments complaining about how someone stole this or that for a prod as well, can't really remember.
Seen in the context of the first part of my post, that's kinda embarrassing to think about. I obviously don't respect other peoples' wishes for control over their creative work, but I seem to think I have the right to control what other people do with my work.
It's textbook cognitive dissonance, and it's arrogance on a staggering level.
But that's probably just me, right? I'm the single asshole in the scene that does things like that, yeah?
Oh, and one more thing: If you actively contribute to the warez scene, you need to take a very deep breath and reflect a bit before you make a huge fuzz about someone stealing from you. Your moral high ground probably ain't that high.
I've used samples from other peoples' modules, sampled commercial music, tv-series, movies and random material off the Internet, referenced or plagiarized stuff someone else has done, made 3D models using references, taken bitmap fonts off "free" font sites and used them in scrollers, used pirated software, seen pirated tv-series and movies, listened to pirated music and posted cool quotes on Twitter without stating sources.
Most likely stolen other things as well.
Both morally and legally I'm a thief. I violate other peoples' intellectual property for my own gain, be it financial or social. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes you'd have to know to know.
I've made money off it in competitions, and gained respect and fame in the scene by doing it. I even got a scene.org award nomination for a soundtrack based on pieces from a couple of rap a cappellas (that I've pirated as well).
But...
I've been pissed and started a thread here on Pouet when someone (in my eyes) sold my music as part of a compilation.
I've written Apple to get a "keygen music" player taken off their App Store because I found out I had a track of mine in it (which to be fair probably contained samples I didn't create myself).
I've probably written my fair share of prod comments complaining about how someone stole this or that for a prod as well, can't really remember.
Seen in the context of the first part of my post, that's kinda embarrassing to think about. I obviously don't respect other peoples' wishes for control over their creative work, but I seem to think I have the right to control what other people do with my work.
It's textbook cognitive dissonance, and it's arrogance on a staggering level.
But that's probably just me, right? I'm the single asshole in the scene that does things like that, yeah?
Oh, and one more thing: If you actively contribute to the warez scene, you need to take a very deep breath and reflect a bit before you make a huge fuzz about someone stealing from you. Your moral high ground probably ain't that high.
Quote:
Oh, and one more thing: If you actively contribute to the warez scene, you need to take a very deep breath and reflect a bit before you make a huge fuzz about someone stealing from you. Your moral high ground probably ain't that high.
Can't agree more...
word lug00ber
i still <3 your tracks :)
i still <3 your tracks :)
<3
i like it more when you do happy hardcore instead of this raving!
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But that's probably just me, right? I'm the single asshole in the scene that does things like that, yeah?
No. I stand with you. o/
Maybe sounds odd, but I kinda like my stuff traveling around as long as these two points are not violated:
- Blatant rippoff, no actual change has been made - but a different name states to be the source of my work
- Earning money with my stuff, worse when no backlink, even worse when not even asked in prior
As graphician you're always told to watermark the shit out of your work, but it feels meh - and I still believe in common sense. A couple of weeks ago, someone took an image from my DevArt (yeah I know..) gallery and used it as a cover for a CD he _sold_ on Bandcamp. He also used it on Youtube, myspace and even as FB account picture.
Best part was, that he did get mad when I told him to immediately stop doing so.
So it's, kind of, not just you :)
- Blatant rippoff, no actual change has been made - but a different name states to be the source of my work
- Earning money with my stuff, worse when no backlink, even worse when not even asked in prior
As graphician you're always told to watermark the shit out of your work, but it feels meh - and I still believe in common sense. A couple of weeks ago, someone took an image from my DevArt (yeah I know..) gallery and used it as a cover for a CD he _sold_ on Bandcamp. He also used it on Youtube, myspace and even as FB account picture.
Best part was, that he did get mad when I told him to immediately stop doing so.
So it's, kind of, not just you :)
please specify the social gain of the cool twitter quotes
thanx, Inertia, the Article linked on the front-page of no-copy by Danny/TBL is the best i ever read about "copying/ripping" :)
direct link: "Disintegration Of The Old Graphics Scene" by Danny / Eidos Interactive
direct link: "Disintegration Of The Old Graphics Scene" by Danny / Eidos Interactive
you see others complaining about their copyright so you feel like you're missing out if you don't try to protect yours, when in reality it's something no one can truly protect once it's exposed to the public.
sharing and remixing is part of all creative processes. no "new" work is 100% original. it's just a matter if you expose your inspirations / references / samples / "brushes" or not.
http://www.nfb.ca/film/rip_a_remix_manifesto/
sharing and remixing is part of all creative processes. no "new" work is 100% original. it's just a matter if you expose your inspirations / references / samples / "brushes" or not.
http://www.nfb.ca/film/rip_a_remix_manifesto/
dear ps ... the world is not just black and white.
xenusion: i dont claim it is. whats your point?
I'd go with Kirby Ferguson: Embracing the remix and say: "Give credit where credit is due"... I always thought the scene was built around the moral principle of asking someone for permission or at least actually saying when you've remixed someone...
When I think of the number of samples, textures or models, snippets of publically available code, techniques from research papers or example code we've used over the years..
imo the major issue is not what you steal from other work, but how much you contribute to what you make from it. how much of the final piece is yours, and how much is someone elses. there's a gradient.
imo the major issue is not what you steal from other work, but how much you contribute to what you make from it. how much of the final piece is yours, and how much is someone elses. there's a gradient.
raer: thats also a nice doc on the subject.
i agree with smash.
but i also see why some folks prefer not to credit their creations properly, once they credit it they are admitting to having used it, and that has two major "downsides" to it:
a) people will know and might then think of them as less of a creative person
b) you are painting a banner to search engines that you are using someone elses material, alot more likely for someone to come bother you to alter it or take it down.
also, it's a PITA to clear everything you ever used. even when you try you usually reach a point where you get tired of that fostered idiocy.
i agree with smash.
but i also see why some folks prefer not to credit their creations properly, once they credit it they are admitting to having used it, and that has two major "downsides" to it:
a) people will know and might then think of them as less of a creative person
b) you are painting a banner to search engines that you are using someone elses material, alot more likely for someone to come bother you to alter it or take it down.
also, it's a PITA to clear everything you ever used. even when you try you usually reach a point where you get tired of that fostered idiocy.
smash: there's that, and there is also how you react when you get caught.
lug00ber has leading. Very much. There's one thing that makes the whole copyright debate so very absurd:
I have yet to meet a single person who's not hypocritical about it.
Everyone I know readily takes and processes stuff from the last ump-thousand years of culture, from mere inspiration to outright copying, and still everyone is like "I'm an artist, what I create is unique". Even the whole "intellectual property" bullshit term is a sign of that hypocrisy; it's a fun thought experiment to really apply the rules governing physical property to ideas and see how the whole thing instantly falls apart.
Then we got people like Alien who's saying "OMG H2O is stealing my art" and "I do several logos per day" in the same post. Apart from that he really should have asked - Seriously, who do you think you are? Has everything you did, ever, been purely from your own mind and you couldn't ever name anyone else who might have put an hour or two of work into creating what you're currently referencing? And even if - why the fuck do you think your one or two hours of work are so extraordinarily unique that nobody should ever build upon them? Seriously, get some sense of perspective. Especially when you come from a background of making mass copies of stuff other people have put months of blood and sweat into. Which you don't give a fuck about. But no, your quickly hacked logo for a rather cheap cracktro is art that must never, ever be misappropriated. RIIIGHT.
(And yep, I'm no different in that regard. I also shut down people using my music in unapproved contexts, mostly commercial, while exactly knowing, per instrument and per track, what other songs I was "inspired" from. Seriously. I could do a per-midi-channel list of the tracks I copied for The Product. Only I'm not that stupid :D)
I have yet to meet a single person who's not hypocritical about it.
Everyone I know readily takes and processes stuff from the last ump-thousand years of culture, from mere inspiration to outright copying, and still everyone is like "I'm an artist, what I create is unique". Even the whole "intellectual property" bullshit term is a sign of that hypocrisy; it's a fun thought experiment to really apply the rules governing physical property to ideas and see how the whole thing instantly falls apart.
Then we got people like Alien who's saying "OMG H2O is stealing my art" and "I do several logos per day" in the same post. Apart from that he really should have asked - Seriously, who do you think you are? Has everything you did, ever, been purely from your own mind and you couldn't ever name anyone else who might have put an hour or two of work into creating what you're currently referencing? And even if - why the fuck do you think your one or two hours of work are so extraordinarily unique that nobody should ever build upon them? Seriously, get some sense of perspective. Especially when you come from a background of making mass copies of stuff other people have put months of blood and sweat into. Which you don't give a fuck about. But no, your quickly hacked logo for a rather cheap cracktro is art that must never, ever be misappropriated. RIIIGHT.
(And yep, I'm no different in that regard. I also shut down people using my music in unapproved contexts, mostly commercial, while exactly knowing, per instrument and per track, what other songs I was "inspired" from. Seriously. I could do a per-midi-channel list of the tracks I copied for The Product. Only I'm not that stupid :D)
psenough: for me at least, b) is the imperative problem. I would have loved to credit more of the stuff I'm sampling, but there is a risk connected to it. Note that this means I'm not only stealing, but to some extent trying to cover it up as well.
When it comes to sampling, finding and piecing together stuff is being creative to me. Other people disagree, and the issue has been debated countless times, especially in context of hip-hop beats.
I however don't feel less creative when doing it, and if other people feel that I am I don't really care much about that.
When it comes to sampling, finding and piecing together stuff is being creative to me. Other people disagree, and the issue has been debated countless times, especially in context of hip-hop beats.
I however don't feel less creative when doing it, and if other people feel that I am I don't really care much about that.
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people will know and might then think of them as less of a creative person
That's still a judgment they're entitled to make, though. I mean, if someone's reaching that conclusion based on some bubbles in the corner of a logo then that's totally moronic to me... but it's a valid opinion, and withholding the information for people to make that judgment is morally wrong.
(I agree there is a limit to how much crediting / clearance you can do before it reaches silly proportions, though, and to me this brush-stealing incident is dancing on that limit. I'm no graphician, though.)
I've had some of my photos used without notice in the past (not that they are necessarily good, or that I consider them "art" :-) ). I've only asked them to stop using them when it has been something commercial, otherwise I'm ok with it.
I even stopped signing or watermarking my photos... I keep a copy of all raw though, should I ever need proof that a photo is my work.
I know it does not account for scene-ripping, but I'd be ok for someone ripping my work on the scene since it's not (directly) commercial.
As for ripping myself... I've done it plenty of times, specially when coding: done a lot of copy/paste myself
I even stopped signing or watermarking my photos... I keep a copy of all raw though, should I ever need proof that a photo is my work.
I know it does not account for scene-ripping, but I'd be ok for someone ripping my work on the scene since it's not (directly) commercial.
As for ripping myself... I've done it plenty of times, specially when coding: done a lot of copy/paste myself
okay so there's been valid points raised but what exactly is the message we're trying to send here?
For me, it reads as "We all know this is going on, so let's not ACT like we're even remotely surprised and let the two people involved square it out in private".
older I get, more orignal stuffs I make. but it's sometime shit only.
