pouët.net

There we go again :)

For the pixel format, it's this way just because it allowed for simpler hardware.

As for the palette, C64 is brown/grey, CPC is cartoonish, spectrum is eyebleeding.
CPC can do all the spectrum colors, and more, so it must be better there ?

I guess the Atari are leading, anyway...

About the Palette of the C64: The main problem of the C64's palette is that its a compromise. Ofcourse Commodore ogled at Atari's colors 5 years before the C64 actually made it to the market. But The C64's graphics chip is the most complex home computer graphics chip its time. Its colors are a compromise between standard RGB colors and the colors of the atari. (with its 3 greys.) Since the VIC probably didnt have the space for additional logic of a color look up table. So they did choose the best 16 colors they had in mind. Too bad the colors probably were chosen by chip designers or the management who probably forgot that the Vic20 actually had already a very nice palette. It just maybe needed an additional grey or something.

Whats wrong with the CPC palette? And whats wrong with cartoony style? If you want to put your hot girlfriend's photo into a demo, maybe you should use an Amiga or PC. Since Photos seem to look equal awful on all 8bit platforms..... Maybe not so much on the Plus/4. ;-)
The C64? I dont know. Too many people mix colors like Grey, Bright Green and Violet into skin-gradients. I think thats what Commodore Enthusiats should better hide in such a conversation. :D

about the sound of AY: AY soundtracks are indeed memorable. Ofcourse, since most C64 musics are based around the SID's features rather than around melodical concepts. I know a few C64 musicians. They really try their best, but only a few of them achieve good comporesults. Why? Because their music tracks have a melody. sometimes new and sometimes old. If you dare to write something like "AY Musics are not memorable", then you insult musicial geniuses like Factor6, Yerzmyey or Targhan, who really not just put alot of effort into their music, but also alot of love too.

For sure, even in 64 bytes ;-)

But unfortunately the DMA scheme is the original 1978 VCS logic, so C64 has twice and CPC 4 times the resolution. So when I caoes to look not only colorful but also nice 'n detailed it really gets hard and takes up all the CPU to do weird things.

Yeah, you really nailed it there Exin.

Exin what are you on about? "Most c64 tunes are based around the SID's features" indeed(!) Yes we have a greater range of oscillator controls but the vast majority of modern SID tunes have far more melodic scope than the average AY track does now. Listen to Drax, Hein Holt or Fanta for a start. Heck, you guys still seem to stick to the same borderline techno songs that Spectrum demos have been trudging out for the past 10-15 years. The other half of the problem is they all have very similar instruments: the "2 frame octave pitching with loop" for the melody line and the combined pulse slide + noise hit for the snare. And so on.... yes AY doesn't have as much scope for variation but there is still plenty that can be done with it. I mean, jeez, I used Vortex Tracker for a couple of Ate Bit demos and there was plenty of things to find things to do with it.
You guys totally have great code and artwork but the audio is really lacking.

Hehe, it seems this thread really turns into a war... ;p

Mermaid: I'm really not sure what YOU'RE on about. Since you made pictures for the MSX and similar platforms. The first picture was a compopic that i never finished. And its 7 years old now. The second one is SUPPOSED to have blue/violet skin. I don't really think i need to lecture you about fantasy art, except you're someone else than THAT Mermaid who used to try every pixel platform at least once.

4Mat: dont get me wrong, but heavy filter and waveform usage for drum & Bass doesnt really count as melodic to me. Ofcourse, i've listened to the music of the people you meantioned. Over and over.

But if you, say tie your music style to the constraints of the SID jst to max it out technically, the music becomes impossible to port to less powerful chips, while a good melody sounds good on whatever platform you try it.

a good example is the outrun music that has been ported to the Atari Pokey. The Pokey has a very limited sound range, even more than the AY. But the tunes still have their soul.

And talk about "stuck in a techno scheme". Even, back "in the days" many of the tunes sound alike of the artists you mentioned. Besides Hein, my favorites are The Syndome, Linus(Even if its mainly scratchy noises, but i like them. ;-), Dane(Yes, you too.), Jeff and Jeroen Tel.

But then, to overcome your style and make each tune really stand out from the others is NOT A PROBLEM LIMITED TO AY MUSICIANS.

Exin: there's hardly any "drum & bass heavy filter" music being written on the SID except by Linus, Jeff and recently Dane. Anyway, you've just contradicted yourself with your reply. Modern AY music has two problems:

1) Good memorable melodies.

2) None of the tunes stand out because they all sound pretty much identical, due to a lack of innovation in both instrumentation and composition.

So I don't know what AY music you're listening to but it sure as heck isn't appearing in the modern demos for either the Spectrum or the Amstrad.

Well, compare Yerzmyey's music with Factor 6's? Are you really sure they sound so much the same? How about Megus? you can throw his music into the mix. Maybe that from Busy&Noro's Echologia? You could also include Agent X's music. But i guess they rather count as classics.

Exin: I just find it funny that you're criticising C64 graphics artists for their supposedly odd colour choices when you yourself happily mixed light pink/blue, pink/cyan/gray/purple etc.

Personally I don't really think you should be lecturing anyone about art, and I don't think you should be trying to lecture 4mat, of all people, about music.

You are right about one thing, I have made graphics for many different machines. And I still like the C64 palette and restrictions best of all the 8bits.

Hmm.. we'll probably end up going around in circles with this. :) So, please, find me modern AY musicians with the emotional resonance and melodic quality of these:

Restless by Drax
Spaceship Cleopatra by Stein Pedersen
Sideborder by Kribust
Artillery by Geir Tjelta

I'm just not hearing the same kind of maturity in modern AY music.

Mermaid: OK, you made your point that the CPC palette sux, alright.
Yeah, and i mix whatever color _i_ like. I'm very aware of my capabilities, so i simply don't attempt "photorealistic" art on the C64. But if someone, who is really capable of alot, puts colors.... ah, forget it. Its 1:30 AM and a friend of mine wants to go to the flea market tomorrow with me.
You won with your critizism. Go celebrate.


But if anyone out there agrees with 4Mat, and thinks he can utilize the AY better than than others. Including 4Mat. You can submit your tune for our upcoming demo (Benediction) Since we're one musician short, you're free to prove your capabilites. :)

Exin: I've already done enough AY music for games and demos thanks.

I'm pretty sure I just said I liked the C64 palette best? Have fun at the flea market!

PS: 4Mat, pointing out at others that their music doesnt sound "mature" to yopur ears so openly, doesnt sound so mature to my ears aswell.

While your mentioned artists might just shrug at your comment, the people you adress this to, are not really helped.

Ah, i might really go to bed and listen to LAZY's old classics some more.

4Mat? You can continue bashing against Spectrum musicians and their childish musics or whatever... you mentioned circles and i'm going to count them 'till i fall asleep.

Exin: hey relax. I'm talking personally from a purely compositional side, I don't find modern AY songs very memorable. I'm allowed an opinion right? Besides this whole thing stemmed from comments on various demo prods so I'm obviously not alone in thinking like that.

Oh common, it's a matter of taste. Even as an Amstrad fun I agree with the Commodorians that CPC and Spectrum has less memorable music. This is not the same with the AtariST of course, whose older and newer music I love. As for the colours, I just prefer the cartoonish colors of CPC. Just a matter of taste.

Much bigotry here I sense. Beat your palette, my palette can. Yes, uuhhhmmm... :)

@4Mat: listen to this maybe?

The C64 does always win, there is no contest! It has the best sound chip and the best graphics chip. The atari may have more colors, but the VIC is miles ahead of all the other platforms. The Z80 may be slightly faster, but this is almost never an advantage due to the crippled graphic modes of the Z80 plattform.

What is interesting is not the computer in itself, but what you do with ! I am on Amstrad CPC because I know it well, I got one when I was young, and I want to take my revenge on what could have been do, but did not.

When I am looking at the C64, I think it is the best computer ever made. C64 is cool because it is possible to trick a lot. All the components have singularities to play with. And I love the C64 palette because it is absolutely against anything logical. This palette is not efficient, but it is loveable :) What I love in it is not what is the computer, but what you do with. I love the C64 palette for what all the graphists made with it. Edge of Disgrace is maybe the best masterpiece of what I ever seen on a computer. I can't tell about the technical, but the design is absolutely mervellus. The insipid colours are assumed, and the music is my favorite one, including all the computers 8bits computers I know.

Tomorrow, many peole on CPC will kill me to have said such heretic feelings, but I assume them.

But telling that a computer is more powerfull than another is a good way to depreciate what you do on it ! What I love on the C64 demos is the same as what I love on the ZX demos : make the best with so hard constraints. So mich people have worked for years on the C64 that it is normal that the creators have more maturity. They got efficient tools erlier, and they spent more time to surpass the well known constraints. On the CPC, we all are beginners.

And now, why do I not create on the C64 ? Because the french scene is completely dead, and because there are more things to invent on the CPC. There is about everything to do, to discover. And I do discover things, believe me. The picture I made for the FOREVER C is an experiment. I have many other ones left from the side... nobody can tell now that the CPC performance are bad compared to the C64 if they were not explored yet. And this is only the technical aspect of gfx : the design have to be explored too.

So what I think is that there is nothing interesting to do with a not limited computer. So you find that the CPC is very limited ? Run on it, and show us you are able to overcome its limits. The french scene looks like a between blood relation, with a few people turning around the same ideas, and I thank Rhino to come and play with us, carrying fresh blood !

You find the AY as bad ? Ok, the chalenge will be better. You find horrible the CPC colors ? Cool, you will have to excell on yourself. The CPC has nothing to prove. It was a very cheap computer and can assume that he is not the most powerfull computer. But every demomaker should wonder what he would be able to do on this so poor computer !

Impress me ! Release a demo on Alice 90...

what Supersly said.

I don't know what to make of Supersly words, are they sincere or sarcasm? :)

+1: what Supersly said.
I also love C64 and I'm jealous for it's hires & sprites. Same goes for CPC and Amiga and their resolution. I had al of them and I coded on all of them.The only one left is my Atari because it was my "first love".

But the point for me never was about the best machine (which is the one you are currently using to render this web page). It eays to do the best on the best machine.

For me the point always was to do something on a "poor" machine and make it look like it's "the best". That is what drive my brain to 100%. That's why I started demo making. People told my "Look that's my A500 - you will never see something like this on your Atari XL".

And I came up 4 weeks later with the same effect - but twice the number and now running at ful frame rate on my 1984 machine. So thank's for the spec and the tech discussion - the rest should be battled with release.