SIGGRAPH Demo Competition
category: parties [glöplog]
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a demo is a demo and they have expressed a desire to contact the DEMOscene..
No, the world outside the demoscene has a very different definition of what a demo is. SIGGRAPH aren't specifically calling for "demoscene demos" at all.
smash: your post makes it a lot clearer. sounds bloody promising! next year at SIGGRAPH: Real-Time Artistic Performances category - for total scene domination \o/
Besides which, why this new "no interactivity allowed" rule for demos? Since when did we have some scene dictator telling us what we're allowed to do (obvious compo restrictions like size limits aside)?
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No, the world outside the demoscene has a very different definition of what a demo is.
the demoscene has a very different definition of what a demo is. and it's an important characteristic that makes the demoscene unique. but thankfully "the outside world" appear to be gradually appretiating that definition. cool.
smash: yes, else they would be blind-folded.
Demo interaction doesn't mean that the demo is going to look bad (if it doesn't make it look like a game of course).
Demo interaction doesn't mean that the demo is going to look bad (if it doesn't make it look like a game of course).
defiance: of course, it all boils down to personal definitions and the "demoscene" is a rage-tag collective of people with no centralized ideals or philosophies. but cultures are generally defined by the majority consensus. i think if you were to take a poll, most involved in the demoscene (who were not trying hard to be "trendy" and progressive, hip and liberal) would agree that one of the essential features of the demoscene is non-interactivity.
why? because if you look at 99.9% of demos, what you actually see are linear narratives. They are intricate realtime performances where the producers go to great pains to synchronizes visuals with audio and atmosphere. that is the *ART* of the scene, which rides on technical skills of course but not the other way 'round.
of course there we can experiment now and then with interaction...there are no real rules...but the moment you introduce interactivity - that idea goes out of the window to a large extent. you no longer have a traditional demo and you also nolonger have the unique characteristic of the demoscene. The intricate creative control is gone.
You wouldn't allow random idiots to jump up on the stage of a Swan Lake performance at the Albert Hall.
that's my opinion. im not saying it's right or law. the scene will decide that as a whole.
why? because if you look at 99.9% of demos, what you actually see are linear narratives. They are intricate realtime performances where the producers go to great pains to synchronizes visuals with audio and atmosphere. that is the *ART* of the scene, which rides on technical skills of course but not the other way 'round.
of course there we can experiment now and then with interaction...there are no real rules...but the moment you introduce interactivity - that idea goes out of the window to a large extent. you no longer have a traditional demo and you also nolonger have the unique characteristic of the demoscene. The intricate creative control is gone.
You wouldn't allow random idiots to jump up on the stage of a Swan Lake performance at the Albert Hall.
that's my opinion. im not saying it's right or law. the scene will decide that as a whole.
Conclusion: the next pixar movie should be interactive!
tbh, I think a lot of movies would be interactive if the technology was there and it didn't get in the way of the story telling.
Story-driven movies that manage to be interactive, subject to the limitations of the medium and the technology...
...wouldn't they be known as "games"?
...wouldn't they be known as "games"?
Not necessarily, no. Or at least not like the kind of games we get now. Perhaps one day games and films will merge into something closer to a film than a game, but where you play a central character? Who knows, the technology needed is still way, way off in the future.
WTF are you all smoking?
Just listen to the mic and add noise every time someone shouts AMIGA during the demo. There, interaction.
Just listen to the mic and add noise every time someone shouts AMIGA during the demo. There, interaction.
Elevated was rejected (nobody came to ask for modifications, and the fun part is that I actually have a version where you take control of the camera, sun position, etc). Just if they had asked...
We got comments like "I am unclear as to the interactive aspect of the demo", what makes me think that not even our fellow colleagues in the industry understand that realtime != interactivity, so we truly are alone in this, dear demosceners!
Anyway, interactivity aside and being realistic, punctuations were not good for Elevated, I think. We scored an average of 3.6 (got the feedback from 9 reviewers, some punctuating 2s in all aspects and others all 5s - yes, all very random).
Hope Smash has luck in the final compo!
We got comments like "I am unclear as to the interactive aspect of the demo", what makes me think that not even our fellow colleagues in the industry understand that realtime != interactivity, so we truly are alone in this, dear demosceners!
Anyway, interactivity aside and being realistic, punctuations were not good for Elevated, I think. We scored an average of 3.6 (got the feedback from 9 reviewers, some punctuating 2s in all aspects and others all 5s - yes, all very random).
Hope Smash has luck in the final compo!
Some of the siggraph reviewers of VSXu said something like: "this is part of maya since long, this is not relevant, don't see how this can be good for anything"
But Maya doesn't give instant feedback on your changes - you have to wait for renders.
When it's realtime with such a tool the workflow is totally different.
Indeed it seems the "industry" doesn't seem to get realtime stuff or even consider that it can bring other types of creativity..
It's kind of like the same with the VJ scene - many VJs detest realtime because it's not perfectly motion blurred and anti-aliased like a Maya/3ds/whatever render is. Many also buy some video clips online and distort them to pieces in random video-mangling software and that's about it.. Nothing wrong with doing that, but they don't see the possibilities with realtime either which is kind of sad.
But Maya doesn't give instant feedback on your changes - you have to wait for renders.
When it's realtime with such a tool the workflow is totally different.
Indeed it seems the "industry" doesn't seem to get realtime stuff or even consider that it can bring other types of creativity..
It's kind of like the same with the VJ scene - many VJs detest realtime because it's not perfectly motion blurred and anti-aliased like a Maya/3ds/whatever render is. Many also buy some video clips online and distort them to pieces in random video-mangling software and that's about it.. Nothing wrong with doing that, but they don't see the possibilities with realtime either which is kind of sad.
I mean realtime other than for games, of course...
Although it seems it's lightening up a bit.
Although it seems it's lightening up a bit.
i've said it before, it is very difficult for most people to understand and appretiate realtime demoscene productions and the demoscene in general today (least of all product orientated industry institutions such as SIGGRAPH). of course the "judges" immediate response to Elevated is: "well, it's realtime but it's not a game and is non-interactive -> therefore it should be prerendered with Terragen." and the fact that it is a major feat for an individual to code in his spare time (driven by nothing but passion) and takes up a total of 4k storage space is "irrelevant" to them in today's world where Terragen already exists and consumers have massive and fast storage space. they would apply similar logic to VSUx. why bother? when the same can be done in Maya already. the judge's ignorance is amazing - i wonder if they even had a clue/description of entries?
but you can understand their view. there are no potential blockbuster movies to be made with non-interactive realtime art, no military/medical applications - zero. and that is what SIGGRAPH is essentially about, not creative art developed with low budget propriety tech. only thing you can do with demos is appreciate them as independent digital works of art and understand that they are made by small groups. but, you know, that is "irrelevant" to most people.
i just find it strange why they even bothered to show an interest this year (perhaps a dry run of the usual corporate lollipop entries?)
but you can understand their view. there are no potential blockbuster movies to be made with non-interactive realtime art, no military/medical applications - zero. and that is what SIGGRAPH is essentially about, not creative art developed with low budget propriety tech. only thing you can do with demos is appreciate them as independent digital works of art and understand that they are made by small groups. but, you know, that is "irrelevant" to most people.
i just find it strange why they even bothered to show an interest this year (perhaps a dry run of the usual corporate lollipop entries?)
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Some of the siggraph reviewers of VSXu said something like: "this is part of maya since long, this is not relevant, don't see how this can be good for anything"
would it be relevant if I was feeding the FFT into the heightmap or...?
Note to self: if I do it next time, remember not to call it "interactive" (that's soooo PC-ish) but "reactive" (yeah, much more Mac-ish and cooler)- only then they will look to it!
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We scored an average of 3.6
What's the max? 10? 5?
Just a note:
Most people watching it won't BELIEVE that our stuff is real-time. This is why interactivity is mandatory...
For example, I saw a video on youtube, showing a real-time raytracer. Lots of people said that it was prerendered... The author of the video, had to provide a link to the software, so they could run at amazing 4 frames per second, the software on their computers (that rendered a car, and the "interactivity" was camera orbit with mouse).
That is the point of the interactivity.
Like someone said: "Aaah, but Maya do that, but not in real-time, you have to render it."
That is exactly it, to show PROOF that it is real-time, you have to CHANGE it in real-time, and show that it does not require rendering.
If you people prove that you can make all sorts of effects that renderers can, but with real-time, interactive, probably you will score some jobs at CAD companies :P (or company, since seemly Autodesk is the one that rules them all...)
Most people watching it won't BELIEVE that our stuff is real-time. This is why interactivity is mandatory...
For example, I saw a video on youtube, showing a real-time raytracer. Lots of people said that it was prerendered... The author of the video, had to provide a link to the software, so they could run at amazing 4 frames per second, the software on their computers (that rendered a car, and the "interactivity" was camera orbit with mouse).
That is the point of the interactivity.
Like someone said: "Aaah, but Maya do that, but not in real-time, you have to render it."
That is exactly it, to show PROOF that it is real-time, you have to CHANGE it in real-time, and show that it does not require rendering.
If you people prove that you can make all sorts of effects that renderers can, but with real-time, interactive, probably you will score some jobs at CAD companies :P (or company, since seemly Autodesk is the one that rules them all...)
after reading the Threads name and NOT reading the thread:
LOL !!!
LOL !!!
I reckon (to an extent) parties stopped the interactive demos. Go back to the 64/Amiga era and there's a stack of releases with 'move joystick to rotate objects/adjust sinus/change techtech/switch parts' etc. Best way of proving things were realtime. More scene tradition ruined by parties. (joke)
Joke or not parties definitely shaped the scene in certain ways, for better or worse.
Just submit some Amiga megademos from the late 80's to siggraph -- most of those have interactive elements.
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Just submit some Amiga megademos from the late 80's to siggraph -- most of those have interactive elements.
They probably wont want that :( The idea that that wouldn't be welcome and there's no such this as "old-school" to SIGGRAPH I think removes them from the demoscene. That's my two cents
sigflup, it seems like you took the bait
