pouët.net

It's all about motivation optimus. The moment you discover, that the stuff somebody is trying to teach you, can actually be used for sthg, learning will be much easier. There were quite a few times when I discovered that something was really useful and even quite interesting when coming across it during a practical problem solution search. I felt that the same things didn't get me nowhere when I was forced learning them but it's never too late to change your mind :)

"It's all about motivation optimus. The moment you discover, that the stuff somebody is trying to teach you, can actually be used for sthg, learning will be much easier."

Yes, but the problem is that when I reach the parts which can be usefull in my work, I don't have to read further. Or,. it's definitelly motivates me more to try to code something and then search for the maths or algorithms needed, instead of reading tons of pages of theoritical maths in order to discover 1-2 pages that might be actually usefull for my own interests. (Other than that, I will be still reading the same shit, just for passing the exams, rather than because of the interest, wrong motivations again but that's an obligation of a student anyways, you can't escape.. :P). If I wanted to do it for my own interest, if I wanted to get true motivation then I would do it for free, without being anxious about the results of exams and being force to read everything needed. I would do what I am already doing in the demoscene in fact!!! As reallife/society/whatever obliges me to move in a direction, I won't get that so called motivation.. (for a scener I was talking with at 0A000h, there is nothing called "motivation", it's just a lie. If you don't get it then it's just not for you)

a lie? noo...

i can't do anything without motivation...

the good thing is that i get motivated easylly

the bad thing is that i lost my motivation more easylly ;-)


Let me give you an example. Except programming, i like to draw sketches. Until ~four months ago, i wasn't able to draw a woman. I started and then everything got screwed up. My hand wasn't following my mind. For years, everytime i was trying it, i always had the same result. So i thought that "well, ok. Drawing women is just not for me - i can't do it". So i drawed only men, funny pictures, techy stuff, logos, etc. However, one day i felt that i really can draw a woman. And i was so motivated, that i draw it using paintbrush and, even if i used a so lame way, the result was so good looking, so nice that i had it as a wallpaper for a long time. All my friend who saw it, they said that it is one of my best drawings and some girls from IEK also asked me to give them the wallpaper because they liked it. Speaking 'technically', the drawing is not very good (bad shaped eyes), but it has an 'energy'; the energy that i had while i was motivated to draw it.

After i draw this sketch, i practiced mostly with faces. Until less than one month, i wasn't able to draw a good body. But i said to myself that if i was able to draw a face, then i could sit down and draw a body. One day this 'motivation' came back and i draw it. It wasn't that good, but it was a start. Since then i'm practicing almost every day (usually while i am in the theory class at IEK :-P). At this point, i'm able to draw a full good looking woman in 10-15 minutes. I have a lot of work to do and experiment with my style, but i definitelly made a start and broke the thought "motivation doesn't exist" and that this is not for me.

Personally i don't believe that something is not for somebody. I believe that everyone can do everything if (s)he really wants it and tries hard to do it. All you need is motivation, which can be gained from good words from friends, from the music you listen, from a good movie or even from yourself and your thoughts. All you have to do is 'catch' it and use it. When you are in it, don't get bored and say 'i'll do it later - i know how', because you won't do it (personal experience).

Like, Optimus, you should better know where you want to get. I don't study just to get a Diploma. I study because if i don't, my job would be tedious and would pay bad and would leave me no free time. And after i have my Diploma, i for the first have *much* better chances to get a job that i actually like, and for the second i don't have to work too much and can enjoy my life and the Demoscene as well. Like, it's not that i was not enjoying my life now (not that i was enjoying it either:>), i actually like to study what i happen to study. This is also important. So, i'm really not the one to tell you what to do.

BTW, do you have so many glöps because of this phrase in the FAQ:
"anyway, maybe later, you'll get free stuff when you'll get enough glöps like for exemple a t-shirt at 100 glöps, a gus at 1000 and a naked girl at 10000."
And you wanna tell us you know nothing about motivation? :>>>>>>>

And after i have my Diploma, i for the first have *much* better chances to get a job that i actually like, and for the second i don't have to work too much and can enjoy my life...

you are either way too naive, or live in some utopian country...

Like, i'd never have a family anyway, so i can assume i'd need a fairly little amount of money to live, i have a choice between:
- not finishing University and having to work really hard just to be able to pay the real minimum expenses, or
- finishing University and having life somewhat easier.

If this doesn't make the choice obvious, then... i don't know! And well, yes, usually i am too naiive. What would a man be without hope? ^[tm]

eye:
"and for the second i don't have to work too much and can enjoy my life"

why do you think you have to work less with a diploma ?

actually you can live quite nicely off of dope money.

eye: the choice is obvious. just it won't make your life easier at all :)

I do believe that motivation exists because I live with that everyday. Ups and Downs. How can I explain the fact that one of these late days I woke up one day in the morning and coded the main bitmap X-stretcher algorithms in one day on my CPC (compiler code for Z80 code generators for diferrent stretching, Z80 codes generating diferrent versions of the same bitmap line, tests, bugs, wiping my plans and doing it from scratch better) but I can't finish much simplier code for leftover CPC plans since months? I got the inspiration after watching the C64 demo Cycle, I'd like to do these texture rotators or bitmap stretchers on the CPC and now I have half finished stuff but then again no motivation or time to make some actuall effects with that :P. Various things can bring motivation up and down. These days I am inactive, because of the fact that I just have to prepare for the final exams and I can't do democoding when I am having that in mind. I am only working very slowly for 1-2 hours in the morning for C64 coding. The morning is the best time to do stuff. At the evening, after returning from the university (where I usually just eat and write these stupid things on Pouet ;), I feel so tired and unmotivated to work for everything..

Scythorior was the guy who told me at 0A000h about motivation. It was at the first night, where at the hall in the main entrance, I'd seen a bunch of freaks laying down, drinking beer, smoking and inhaling some fyalids with balloons or something. I was sitting there being bored in a way or something. Then, the other people left and only me and Scythorior left. It was crazy because he was in a funny state and he was talking so much that he overpassed me in that. I think I might have spoken for about less than 2-3% of the time :)

Anyways,. I just have mood for stories and getting out of the subject. It was very interesting and perhaps the best time for me at 0A000h because we talked about subjects of scene or real life that matters me. The last chat was about motivation. I couldn't understand at the time why he despises motivation so much. In fact, it was me who started telling him how good motivation is for me and that I am always searching for it in order to find the mood to work out something in my life.

And now we are getting into the subject :)

The only way I understand what he says and the only thing I mean in my previous message is this: You can't get motivation for something that you don't really want to do.

E.g. studying for the university is something that really comes as an obligation from the outside world (society, family) and only that. I never developed my own interest to study to my own will. Studies were always irrelevant to me. You may tell me that I should find a reason, a motivation for studying, because motivations can be found in every little thing and why not in the thing that is essential for my life? I don't know. Perhaps I am too stuborn, perhaps I am just taking reality too seriously and so I can't lie to myself. Faking motivations in order to get the mood working for something that is not really me, is like lying towards me. Afteralls, it last for a very little time at the end..

This is the only way I understand Scythorior's words today. Perhaps motivation exists (or the up/down triggers that define the ammount/quality of work) when it's about the things that I love in the demoscene.

But then again, a question arises, one that I didn't managed to set to Scythorior, because of his instant talking :)

Does the fact that I rarely find the so called motivation to be active in the scene, means that being active in the demoscene is not for me? Either that I was misguided concerning my reasons of producing in the scene, or that I don't know what I want from the scene anyways? I guess I'll have to answer to this question alone..

optimus: just imagine what much cooler (or faster!)effects you could code if you would be able to understand all of the knowledge that was\is being teached during your (further) studies..
i know that learning for math exams sucks a lot.. but the knowledge you gain by that can be worth it! as math is REALLY necessary to code neat stuff nowadays.. especially when doing (demo-)gfx-coding..
have you ever read some of the stuff that gets released on SIGGRAPH or similar conferences? maybe that could help to get you motivated?

Not all math is useful for democoding... apart from linear algebra and discrete maths, I haven't find anything really useful...

In everything I am currently coding, no more maths than what I learned from school are needed. Well,. maths in greek schools were already too high some people say, we did derivatives, integrals, functional analysis, linear algebra, imaginery numbers and such stuff even before going to the university (at least those poor(?) people following the direction of natural sciences :)

Also, I haven't used very weird or advanced things for 3d stuff, rather than the basic knowledge of trigonometry, linear algebra, matrices (and it's even much funnier that beginning in OpenGL doesn't even ask you for that!). Perhaps solving of diferrential equations are needed in Splines, and there are more stuff I am missing, but I believe that it's a myth that graphics programming are using very hard maths.

I know the very essential and basic things, all the others are just boring theoritical additions, being a math freak is too high for me or not interesting for the moment, but for coding graphics I need only few of them. And even if there is something new, I can construct it with the basic ones I know. For example, I was using something called linear interpolation by some to fade my palletes in my very first qbasic demo, but I never knew that it was called so and that it's all about maths. I just constructed this algorithm by logic!

Also, a lot of things can be coded and optimized with pure integer code when my interest is about programming in older machines. The fact that I haven't read the very advanced (and very theoritical) math books doesn't put a barrier for me in the demoscene. I could always understand the maths behind every tutorial if explained to me well. I never had a problem. Perhaps I already know the math needed, nevertheless I can construct some of the algorithms I want to try with some observations, logic and the basic stuff I already know..

Actually, I am the kind of geek who is too lazy to read. I prefer to try things rather than read. Another reason why I hate transitions (from basic to C, from X86 to FPU asm, etc.) and I prefer to do something with what I already know. University asks from me to learn too much stuff, while I can have a more interesting time creating something on my PC with things I was already learning since years at school.

what about statistics? (quasi-)monte-carlo methods? numerics? [...]
stuff that is widely used for cgfx.. and which needs a lot of other nasty mathematic disciplines as well..
but delivering pure eye-candy if used for the right stuff.. :)

I would prefer to be in a computer graphics department, rather than pure maths. To see the practical example, and get an explanation about the equations used in that. Not read 99% of things about the maths and 1% or 0% about the praxis. Neverthelles, I'll never get the motivation studying for my university, but reading something because I need it for my effects, yes. I can read a tutorial upon that then, found on the internet. Reading the boring math books of my professors is just about passing their exams. Get it?

One more.

Sometimes, it seems like math expressions are unnecessary used to explain effects. Well,. it looks more compact to have that in one equation, but when somebody sees Sigma's for describing blur or blobs, he goes scared away! But the algorithm behind them, is very easy to explain and the feel of the visual result of it, that even my friend Antitec on the CPC who despises maths and likes to do everything so childish in integer assembly could understand how they work :)

Also. I never used Matrices in 3d. Ok,. I haven't coded anything advanced, rather than plain 3d object rotators, but I think my equations are similar to the basic matrix rotation I see all around. Matrices are just a diferrent representation of what I am doing, an automation. Perhaps you can put more things in the matrices or they say it's faster. But if it's the same thing, then I can do my own thing faster too (if I already haven't cut down manually the calculations that people cut down with matrices).

I also hate when all the known tutorials with lotsa maths, gives you the rotation matrices, explains you perhaps how to multiply matrices, or perhaps they don't. BUT,. they never explain why these matrices or resultring equation nomatter, rotate in 3 axes! Just pure hardlooking maths and no explanations. I am wondering if the authors of the tutorials know 100% for sure. Sometimes, I think maths are there in order to make your code looking more sophisticated :)

the problem is that you need to have some basic math-knowledge to understand the high-level stuff..

its like learning a new programming-language somehow.. first you need to know the syntax and stuff before you can start to code..

i bet you can remember the first lines of asm-code you saw.. scary, weren't they? ;)

same goes for mathematics.. most stuff looks scary like hell.. but just for the sake of 'simplicity'!
mathematic notations can be written down shortly and, what is more important, fit into a 'global framework' that any scientist is able to understand..

If you get scared away by an analytic notation of a sum then... i don't know! Haven't you ever been to school? :> It's only used because it's much simpler than writing a_1 + a_2 + a_3 + a_4 + ... + a_n.

And what's so bad about code being consise and sophisticated? I think your math professor has failed to explain you a lot of things. They all have visual sense and representation! But if a professor hasn't done that, coming up with that on your own is EVEN MORE REWARDING! (hint, hint!)

My luck was, i had a wonderful professor in the first year, a geometry freak. He himself has had it *very* hard to study in the University, but he made that easy to us by providing geometric representations of everything and visual examples. He even has built up an exhibition where you can touch-and-try all kinds of aspects of Geometry and Math, and wrote a very innovative geometric software.

And hey, talk to Scy about motivation! he is
* a demoscene MUSICIAN (the folk which gets their job done within an hour, while all others need tons of time)
* in Real Life, an INSURANCE AGENT. Really, isn't that the most unmotivated job possible?
* waaaay too old!
Combine that and you get to understand why his opinion is the one he has, and why you really don't necessarily have to adopt it!

Another point, i think, is that you can turn everything, whatever you like, into an obsession, into a drug. That's what most coders do. Unless you do that, you cannot really compete with them. Like, i hate cigarettes, but i know it can easily turn into obsession. So can studying math. So can everything! There are ways to accomplish that. It's probably the last resort before failing and

About linear algebra: it's really very simple. A matrix groups a few vectors, which are what default unit vectors are being transformed into. Like, you take (1,0,0) and start thinking about where it should go. You would need your knowledge of sine and cosine. ;) Place it into the matrix, and so on... And the magic is, not only these vecotrs get transformed, but everythig goes with it! You can have in one shot, all kinds of rotation and scaling, as well as slanting and if you add another (fake) dimension even motion! Isn't that simply fucking beautifuf? Math is not about complexity, it's about beauty and simplicity! If you didn't get that, something went totally wrong with you. And only a (notably closed-minded) person who doesn't really know math can say that it's useless.

@eye:
math professors in Greek suck big time. In every class i had different professors and most (not all) failed to teach me simple stuff that i learned myself later when i needed them for some effects. Unfortunatelly, they one care how to spend they hour, giving some execices that not all the time can be solved, etc. In Greece, if you want to learn math, you have to do it by yourself.

@Optimus:
i doubt that Matrices are faster than writing the equations by hand. However is easier to combine many effects. I'm not sure about quaternions, however.

I have a nice book covering software rendering (it's games related but the information inside can be used in demos too) and explains everything in very detail (the only problems it that is very big). I'll try to bring it to ReAct in order to take a look :-).

Of course there is an advantage of using matrices. If you do a three axis rotation in seperate operations, you need 4 multiplies per axis. With a matrix you can do any transformation you want with 9 muls (or 7 by using some oldschool tricks).

That said - realtime 3d gfx does just require very simple linear algebra. Usually this is covered in the first few month in a linear algebra class in the university. This is what coding 99% of all demos required.

Things get more complicated with advanced light models.. there some knowledge of stochastics does not hurt. Good realtime "physics" (kinetics..) requires good ODE solvers (yeah, simple explicit euler does not do it all the time) which requires even more knowledge.

But all in all I think that unversity maths does usually cover all maths needed for democoding and much more advanced stuff..

P.s.: I'd like to see a realtime and stable navier stokes solver in a demo - then we are taking about different stuff.

BadSector: it may very well be that i am lucky. Here, whatever you have to learn, you are likely to have to help yourself, although this university here is known as one of the best. It just seems that math and physics professors are somewhat better than others, like computer science or other techy stuff.

Optimus: BadSector is right. Interpolating motion by Euler gives unrealistic result. Quaternions are the help, but then again they only make sense with matrices. Grab a book here: http://www.math.mcgill.ca/loisel/zed3d095.zip

Get fresh dudez! It's ok.

I am not getting scared by Sigma (anymore). I just say that others are getting without being a reason for it!

And no, I don't need books, leave me alone! I am still able to code everything with what I already know!!!

To clear up things.

I never said that maths are useless. But sure most of them are not necessary needed at democoding, at least at the basic stuff I am doing. I am not going to do something very advance in years anyways. I know everything you say and I know why the using of symbols or that some things might be usefull somewhere. I am just getting stuborn and I hate hearing the same things, trying to persuade me to study because I might use 1% of them in democoding. As I was studying for democoding and not to pass the exams.

In the university, you are forced to study to pass the exams, if it was about knowledge exams and diploma wouldn't exist. They wouldn't take your head if you didn't read everything but just playing with what you like!