Open Letter to AMI / Tristar
category: general [glöplog]
zest: sure, that rings a bell. A lot of people here work in other media type jobs and get lots of outside perspective, or work with 'outsiders' and new people. We get plenty of fresh perspective surely, while still keeping enough of the core people to make the demoscene what it is... a place where people make and enjoy demos.
There's so much bullshit in this thread that it's hard to imagine...
okkie: just for my personal interests...
I just have the feeling, that "oldschool-sceners" with love for amiga-stuff, old designed stuff like pixeled handwork gfx, modules, SID sounds etc. are called "ghettosceners" ...
In a lot of discussions i've read again and again about that new word "ghettosceners" which most time was in conjunction with sceners which like "oldschool" stuff. Whatever...
In this way i just wanted to know on which side you are?
But about your question: I don't think that we can classify productions as old- or newschool. If i code an Intro on Windows System, using Bitmapfont from Amiga and pixeled Logo i could call it oldschool. But is it ? I think oldschool is, when i code exacly this stuff on an Amiga or C64 and not with Visual C++ and using Bass.dll routine to play mods or using libsidplay or something like that. :)
What is now newschool and what is oldschool? :)
i don't classify productions about the content of using graphics or music. If the prodution is fine i give my vote.
I just have the feeling, that "oldschool-sceners" with love for amiga-stuff, old designed stuff like pixeled handwork gfx, modules, SID sounds etc. are called "ghettosceners" ...
In a lot of discussions i've read again and again about that new word "ghettosceners" which most time was in conjunction with sceners which like "oldschool" stuff. Whatever...
In this way i just wanted to know on which side you are?
But about your question: I don't think that we can classify productions as old- or newschool. If i code an Intro on Windows System, using Bitmapfont from Amiga and pixeled Logo i could call it oldschool. But is it ? I think oldschool is, when i code exacly this stuff on an Amiga or C64 and not with Visual C++ and using Bass.dll routine to play mods or using libsidplay or something like that. :)
What is now newschool and what is oldschool? :)
i don't classify productions about the content of using graphics or music. If the prodution is fine i give my vote.
Daxx: "Ghettosceners" is rather the word for "Old farts bragging on and on about how 1337 they were on their Amigas during the 1200baud BBS days despite not having contributed anything significant to the demoscene and certainly not thinking about starting to do so now". That the same persons often behave like total dicks when they're drunk at demoparties is probably no coincidence.
Read those TRS agaist TRSI against the other TRSI against RSI against Scoopex against S!P against TRBS against whoever threads again. Maybe you'll understand.
Read those TRS agaist TRSI against the other TRSI against RSI against Scoopex against S!P against TRBS against whoever threads again. Maybe you'll understand.
The Repetitive Strain Injury?
kb_ ... but you forget the guys which have nothing to do with such threads but still members of one of your named groups and suffer under this judgement.
So is it right now to call them ALL ghettosceners or just the guys which have more interests in flamewars on pouet.net ?
i know ... i'm not that person who should ask it because i'm not innocent in some of this endless discussions but... try to sort out a bit.
in example i can not say "all farbrausch members especially kb_ is gay because one member kicked me out of demo.ger ago 4 month because he was'nt smart enough to sort out who fucked the channel with spammings" ...
hope you agree...
regards.
So is it right now to call them ALL ghettosceners or just the guys which have more interests in flamewars on pouet.net ?
i know ... i'm not that person who should ask it because i'm not innocent in some of this endless discussions but... try to sort out a bit.
in example i can not say "all farbrausch members especially kb_ is gay because one member kicked me out of demo.ger ago 4 month because he was'nt smart enough to sort out who fucked the channel with spammings" ...
hope you agree...
regards.
draxx, you missed the point there a bit - ghettosceners is a term that is more or less being used for people who still celebrate their old machine's limitations instead of evolving within those limits. right here, concerning that matter, nobody's putting anyone down because of his platform of choice.
just to give an example - there's still people who claim that tbl suck on amiga because they're donig animations instead of copperbars, while the rest of the world actually got that it's ok for them to do it, because everybody understands that it's doable on amiga and that what they do looks damn cool, no matter how they do it. :)
just to give an example - there's still people who claim that tbl suck on amiga because they're donig animations instead of copperbars, while the rest of the world actually got that it's ok for them to do it, because everybody understands that it's doable on amiga and that what they do looks damn cool, no matter how they do it. :)
right, kb beat me by some 15 minutes. =)
daxx: there was a reason why i put 'oldskoolers' in quotes. To *not* scoop in all people that have been active since 1985 in that group of, imho, 12 year old 30somethings.
But yeah, kb and dalezy said it right.
Oh, and I've been active since 1994, which would probably make me a 'new-skooler' :)
But yeah, kb and dalezy said it right.
Oh, and I've been active since 1994, which would probably make me a 'new-skooler' :)
Daxx: A few examples on how to recognize a typical ghettosceners.
1.) Left the scene in the 80/90ies, returned 10+ years later, failed to notice that the rest of the scene didn't halt but made 10-20 years of progress in regards of production quality, social structures and communication forms.
The most important change in social structure is that back in the 80/90ies things have been very hierachical, ego has been far more bound to group structures, and communication and exchange mostly happened inside groups. Today individual sceners communicate with each other, meet each other face to face far more often. Groups rarely don't have "leaders" anymore, but are mostly used as "labels" for productions created by often-changing teams.
While many of these "returning oldschoolers" think that the first thing to do is to setup a strong hierachical structure, the right thing to do would be a social network not bound to a group at all.
To active sceners, it looks really really weird to see statements like "I, Mr Leetguy, am now the leader of Leetgroup", where the groupname is a once-famous one, but Leetguy doesn't have any social network with todays scene.
2.) Similar to 1.) but has noticed the progress, but does not try to catch up, but instead runs around yelling how today's scene sucks compared to the one of the 80/90ies
3.) Similar to 1.), but didn't notice that recycling the name of a group that has been famous in the 80/90ies but has been dead since does not gain any fame, but is regarded as lame, especially if that group once was known for releasing top-notch stuff but now releases beginner-level productions. In other words: If one has missed a decade of development, in IT/computing/arts this basically means you are starting from scratch, and should start like a beginner.
4.) Inactive sceners who don't do anything relevant to the scene, but just show up at demoparties to get drunk and act like assholes. Typically these kind of people wear T-Shirts with once-famous groupnames in big letters on it. They do this so that if they get asked what the fuck they are doing at the party they are able to point at their T-Shirt instead of admitting that they don't belong there. Most of these types don't even have a glory past, but have been swappers or the likes "back in the days". Some never even had been part of the scene at all, but got brought in by other ghettosceners, who handed them one of those t-shirts with that "famous" groupname on it.
Now, one could say "how is this a problem? Let's just ignore them.". The problem is, that those ghettosceners are spoiling it for others. Some of the returning oldschoolers would actually be interested in trying to catch up and get integrated into today's scene. Instead they are distracted by silly wars over groupnames etc - things that have been normal back in the 80/90ies. As it looks common to them, so they get to the false assumption that this still is the way things go these days.
Take your own image inside the scene itself. You've returned after well over a decade, with quite some potential to become an active and respected member of the scene again. Instead of trying to re-start like this had been your first day in the scene, working your way up, starting to build a personal network with today's people, you've mixed with ghettosceners - sure, that looked more easy ("wow, ravebusters! I remember those! The good old days!"), but it's a dead-end, as 90% of the people around just PRETEND to be of any relevance at all today. You could already been working with far better people and gained yourself far more respect if you instead would have invested the time to build a new social network scratch, possibly not even mentioning your past at all.
[TBC]
1.) Left the scene in the 80/90ies, returned 10+ years later, failed to notice that the rest of the scene didn't halt but made 10-20 years of progress in regards of production quality, social structures and communication forms.
The most important change in social structure is that back in the 80/90ies things have been very hierachical, ego has been far more bound to group structures, and communication and exchange mostly happened inside groups. Today individual sceners communicate with each other, meet each other face to face far more often. Groups rarely don't have "leaders" anymore, but are mostly used as "labels" for productions created by often-changing teams.
While many of these "returning oldschoolers" think that the first thing to do is to setup a strong hierachical structure, the right thing to do would be a social network not bound to a group at all.
To active sceners, it looks really really weird to see statements like "I, Mr Leetguy, am now the leader of Leetgroup", where the groupname is a once-famous one, but Leetguy doesn't have any social network with todays scene.
2.) Similar to 1.) but has noticed the progress, but does not try to catch up, but instead runs around yelling how today's scene sucks compared to the one of the 80/90ies
3.) Similar to 1.), but didn't notice that recycling the name of a group that has been famous in the 80/90ies but has been dead since does not gain any fame, but is regarded as lame, especially if that group once was known for releasing top-notch stuff but now releases beginner-level productions. In other words: If one has missed a decade of development, in IT/computing/arts this basically means you are starting from scratch, and should start like a beginner.
4.) Inactive sceners who don't do anything relevant to the scene, but just show up at demoparties to get drunk and act like assholes. Typically these kind of people wear T-Shirts with once-famous groupnames in big letters on it. They do this so that if they get asked what the fuck they are doing at the party they are able to point at their T-Shirt instead of admitting that they don't belong there. Most of these types don't even have a glory past, but have been swappers or the likes "back in the days". Some never even had been part of the scene at all, but got brought in by other ghettosceners, who handed them one of those t-shirts with that "famous" groupname on it.
Now, one could say "how is this a problem? Let's just ignore them.". The problem is, that those ghettosceners are spoiling it for others. Some of the returning oldschoolers would actually be interested in trying to catch up and get integrated into today's scene. Instead they are distracted by silly wars over groupnames etc - things that have been normal back in the 80/90ies. As it looks common to them, so they get to the false assumption that this still is the way things go these days.
Take your own image inside the scene itself. You've returned after well over a decade, with quite some potential to become an active and respected member of the scene again. Instead of trying to re-start like this had been your first day in the scene, working your way up, starting to build a personal network with today's people, you've mixed with ghettosceners - sure, that looked more easy ("wow, ravebusters! I remember those! The good old days!"), but it's a dead-end, as 90% of the people around just PRETEND to be of any relevance at all today. You could already been working with far better people and gained yourself far more respect if you instead would have invested the time to build a new social network scratch, possibly not even mentioning your past at all.
[TBC]
Let's all join Titanscene i say.
And in regards of "but you forget the guys which have nothing to do with such threads but still members of one of your named groups and suffer under this judgement.":
Yeah, pity, but that's how it is. The only real troublemakers at Breakpoint this year which had to be handled by our paid security and got thrown out of the party all were wearing T-Shirts saying "Scoopex - generations ahead". During the last 5 years of Breakpoint, more than 80% of all troublemakers (actual fights, shitting on the floor, pissing on other sceners, doing vandalism) had been (wannabe-)members of recycled once-famous groups. So yes, if I see someone wearing a Scoopex T-Shirt today, the first thing that comes to my mind no longer is "wow, I remember those great releases from back the 90ies", but it is "sigh, where is the security team?".
I'm very well aware that all of these groups contain exceptions that aren't ghettosceners. We've even got a Scoopex member in our BP organizing team. But that's simply the way it is: Those who behave won't be noticed, those who disbehave and are vocal and acting like shit will be.
So, here is a nice hint to everyone returning to the scene: Do not join Scoopex, TRSI, Tristar, S!P or anything that smells remotely like it. You'll have a very hard time to earn respect. If you tell anyone which group you are in, the first thoughts of the one you are telling it quite likely will be "Ok, so is this a lame party animal, a fat drunk 35-year-old car mechanic that once owned a C64 and has been a swapper, or does this guy just have a small penis and therefore isn't able to create a name for himself?".
And a hint to those in these groups who would like to become active again or are trying it - how about trying to get out of the ghetto? Start building a personal social network with the real scene. Stop working with people of the past, try to improve yourself by challenging yourself with working with todays people and quality standards.
Yeah, pity, but that's how it is. The only real troublemakers at Breakpoint this year which had to be handled by our paid security and got thrown out of the party all were wearing T-Shirts saying "Scoopex - generations ahead". During the last 5 years of Breakpoint, more than 80% of all troublemakers (actual fights, shitting on the floor, pissing on other sceners, doing vandalism) had been (wannabe-)members of recycled once-famous groups. So yes, if I see someone wearing a Scoopex T-Shirt today, the first thing that comes to my mind no longer is "wow, I remember those great releases from back the 90ies", but it is "sigh, where is the security team?".
I'm very well aware that all of these groups contain exceptions that aren't ghettosceners. We've even got a Scoopex member in our BP organizing team. But that's simply the way it is: Those who behave won't be noticed, those who disbehave and are vocal and acting like shit will be.
So, here is a nice hint to everyone returning to the scene: Do not join Scoopex, TRSI, Tristar, S!P or anything that smells remotely like it. You'll have a very hard time to earn respect. If you tell anyone which group you are in, the first thoughts of the one you are telling it quite likely will be "Ok, so is this a lame party animal, a fat drunk 35-year-old car mechanic that once owned a C64 and has been a swapper, or does this guy just have a small penis and therefore isn't able to create a name for himself?".
And a hint to those in these groups who would like to become active again or are trying it - how about trying to get out of the ghetto? Start building a personal social network with the real scene. Stop working with people of the past, try to improve yourself by challenging yourself with working with todays people and quality standards.
What scamp said. AND:
Of course there are examples how old "dead" groups can be revived. Look at the Andromeda guys - after 14 years they're back with a vengeance. No, actually they were back with a DEMO. No group fights, no 1337 web site, no 100 empty announcements but an actual product that was GOOD. And one year later it's like they were never gone.
Or look at people like Axel and Alien who took a shovel, went to the scene graveyard and started digging :). Romeo Knight is back, and guess what - he isn't bashing random Atari sceners but hes doing music. For, like, demos. That's a word not unlike "demoscene", if you look closely.
So yes, forget about TR[B]S(i)(1|2,|3|2002|2008|Fearmoths), S(coo|!)P(ex), et al. Don't join these groups if your goal is participating in this scene by being productive. And honestly, to whoever's still alive in these groups: Dissolve them. Kill them dead. Call it quits. All those names have gotten so tarnished with all the shit you have been doing in the last years that at least in this scene they aren't worth the 4 bytes of space they take. Let it rest already, you can only make it worse. Yes, ALL of you.
Of course there are examples how old "dead" groups can be revived. Look at the Andromeda guys - after 14 years they're back with a vengeance. No, actually they were back with a DEMO. No group fights, no 1337 web site, no 100 empty announcements but an actual product that was GOOD. And one year later it's like they were never gone.
Or look at people like Axel and Alien who took a shovel, went to the scene graveyard and started digging :). Romeo Knight is back, and guess what - he isn't bashing random Atari sceners but hes doing music. For, like, demos. That's a word not unlike "demoscene", if you look closely.
So yes, forget about TR[B]S(i)(1|2,|3|2002|2008|Fearmoths), S(coo|!)P(ex), et al. Don't join these groups if your goal is participating in this scene by being productive. And honestly, to whoever's still alive in these groups: Dissolve them. Kill them dead. Call it quits. All those names have gotten so tarnished with all the shit you have been doing in the last years that at least in this scene they aren't worth the 4 bytes of space they take. Let it rest already, you can only make it worse. Yes, ALL of you.
wait! , i think the folks over at s!p are quite nice actually, and I still enjoy watching new old school effects, maybe because im 30 now and im going through a mid life crisis, but I think if a group is being productive and enjoying their choice of production / platform, let them be.
I still agree with KBS statement about 100 announcemnts tho =)
I still agree with KBS statement about 100 announcemnts tho =)
"revolution must try to act, not in order to come into existence at some future date, but in terms of the obscure existence which is already made manifest in the act of insurrection. This rule is neither formal nor subject to history, it is what can best be described by examining it in its pure state – in artistic creation." Aronson Camus
so yes, talk is cheap - we all know this. The "doers" who allow themselves to be dragged into theoretical debates do themselves injustice. why argue with ghosts? the present is happening and the present is the creation of doers, who reign supreme until the moment they stop doing. :|
Just Do It!
so yes, talk is cheap - we all know this. The "doers" who allow themselves to be dragged into theoretical debates do themselves injustice. why argue with ghosts? the present is happening and the present is the creation of doers, who reign supreme until the moment they stop doing. :|
Just Do It!
stuey: You didn't get the point. It doesn't matter if there are nice guys who call themselves s!p now. Mention s!p, and most people will have thoughts along the line of "ah, s!p, nice group in the 90ies, died in ~1995, got re-created by some lamers in 2003, who then started flaming on pouet, released a bunch of total crap, threatend to beat up other people, got thrown out at Breakpoint for pissing on sleeping sceners and starting a fight with the security, then died again, and then got re-re-founded by whoever knows in 2005 who since then put out beginner-level and oldschool-just-because-we-can't-do-better kind of releases.
See 1.) and 3.) again on this.
No offense to those who believe they are members of S!P, they may be really nice people, but they are as clever as someone who forms a business based on putting cat shit into tap water and selling that as a soft drink, calling his company "coca-cola" and then being frustrated that noone takes him seriously and that he doesn't get invited into the golf club.
See 1.) and 3.) again on this.
No offense to those who believe they are members of S!P, they may be really nice people, but they are as clever as someone who forms a business based on putting cat shit into tap water and selling that as a soft drink, calling his company "coca-cola" and then being frustrated that noone takes him seriously and that he doesn't get invited into the golf club.
Quote:
Or look at people like Axel and Alien who took a shovel, went to the scene graveyard and started digging.
What you want to tell me with it? That it is the new social network acting behind backs, using creative members from thousands of groups, to create my imperium based on an e107cms and acting like Darth Wader?
uhm... than i'm very happy to be an oldschoolish ghettoscener and better stay to my opinions official as talking that opinions behind backs and mixing it up with some bullshit. ;)
Daxx: You asked about the term "oldskool" when related to productions.. The fact is there are (at least) 3 different and contradictory meanings to that when describing releases. All are used completely randomly, depending on the user and situation. This renders the whole term moronic and useless, not to mention undebatable. But I already wrote a looong rant about this crap to the BBS years ago, so no need to do it again :)
The point is: there is no "side", it's all completely subjective. Just do stuff. Don't worry about these people yelling "lol it's (not) *skool" at every chance. They'll find their way to the clue shoppe eventually.
No problems with "ghettoscener" though, as scamp has (repeatedly) defined it very clearly. :)
The point is: there is no "side", it's all completely subjective. Just do stuff. Don't worry about these people yelling "lol it's (not) *skool" at every chance. They'll find their way to the clue shoppe eventually.
No problems with "ghettoscener" though, as scamp has (repeatedly) defined it very clearly. :)
very sad that such respective members and BP Orga Teammates like KB and scamp spend so much time to heat up this so crappy discussion.
Breakpoint antibahviour:
The so often glorified famous "paid" security only assisted, and didnd solve anything initial.
The one guy "shitting" was member of oxyron.
smash was puking right onto the infodesk - fairlight.
Fistfights in the shower with acryd and me - Aenima.
And the fucking paid security gets all the credits?
ONLY OLDSKOOLERS MISBEHAVE?
I didnt count how much puke we removed due to the last years from the partyfloor thrown out by NOT-OLDSKOOLERS.
I didnt count how many NOT-OLSKOOLERS got laid into the showers to sleep, got thrown out or anything.
The only misbehaviour of scoopex members was done by TMB in 2003, and this year they just acted kind of too loud on the parking lot.
so really come on...
ah and KB:
du gehst mir mit deinem Kreuzzug gegen alles was nicht Farbrausch newskool ist sowas von auf den Sack. Du entwickelst dich zu einer garstigen alten Frau.
It should be respective that after allf those years still groups exist who release nice productions.
Productions which arent done by professional Gamedevelopers, people who work for an income guys like KB or others wouldnt even getting their asses out of bed.
its very sad kb and scamp that you have such view on old groups,
and its even more sad that you obviously dont see whos really stressing and disturbing at the partyplace.
maybe its because the real party is NOT in the VIP Areas.
Fazit: Macht euren Scheiss alleine, gibt ja die Paid security....
Breakpoint antibahviour:
The so often glorified famous "paid" security only assisted, and didnd solve anything initial.
The one guy "shitting" was member of oxyron.
smash was puking right onto the infodesk - fairlight.
Fistfights in the shower with acryd and me - Aenima.
And the fucking paid security gets all the credits?
ONLY OLDSKOOLERS MISBEHAVE?
I didnt count how much puke we removed due to the last years from the partyfloor thrown out by NOT-OLDSKOOLERS.
I didnt count how many NOT-OLSKOOLERS got laid into the showers to sleep, got thrown out or anything.
The only misbehaviour of scoopex members was done by TMB in 2003, and this year they just acted kind of too loud on the parking lot.
so really come on...
ah and KB:
du gehst mir mit deinem Kreuzzug gegen alles was nicht Farbrausch newskool ist sowas von auf den Sack. Du entwickelst dich zu einer garstigen alten Frau.
It should be respective that after allf those years still groups exist who release nice productions.
Productions which arent done by professional Gamedevelopers, people who work for an income guys like KB or others wouldnt even getting their asses out of bed.
its very sad kb and scamp that you have such view on old groups,
and its even more sad that you obviously dont see whos really stressing and disturbing at the partyplace.
maybe its because the real party is NOT in the VIP Areas.
Fazit: Macht euren Scheiss alleine, gibt ja die Paid security....
for the breakpoint invitation oldskoolers where good enough....just to mention
DocD: I get your point, but what is the meaning with writing german at some places (I understand german... but still a lot of other sceners don't)
Actually the last point of your post doesn't get through to the most people
Means something like: "End result: Do your shit alone, you have the paid scurity already...."
Actually the last point of your post doesn't get through to the most people
Quote:
Fazit: Macht euren Scheiss alleine, gibt ja die Paid security....
Means something like: "End result: Do your shit alone, you have the paid scurity already...."
yes. that was meant.
sorry iam upset cause iam dissapointed in a personal way from above mentioned persons.
there are so many important and valuable guys inscene who arent skilled in coding, composing or pixeling but they are part.
The scene is more than just the sum of its releases.
Thats what it was all about, always.
This newskool oldskool diskussion shouldnt even exist, it is a shame imho.
And it is even more shame and painful if rolemodels start bashing and heating up this ridicoulus thread.
If you guys rate a scener upon his productions - you are less Dimensional than your productions. You forget many many ppl and that is kind of sad.
sorry iam upset cause iam dissapointed in a personal way from above mentioned persons.
there are so many important and valuable guys inscene who arent skilled in coding, composing or pixeling but they are part.
The scene is more than just the sum of its releases.
Thats what it was all about, always.
This newskool oldskool diskussion shouldnt even exist, it is a shame imho.
And it is even more shame and painful if rolemodels start bashing and heating up this ridicoulus thread.
If you guys rate a scener upon his productions - you are less Dimensional than your productions. You forget many many ppl and that is kind of sad.
Quote:
and this year they just acted kind of too loud on the parking lot
thanks for putting this almost right, DocD, you know it because you were there when it happened. you were there by accident, exactly like me at that moment, when our friend (who is NO Scoopex-member by the way) was too loud and suddenly had Scamp and the security at his neck.
- noone of the people involved in this situation wore scoopex-shirts. come on!
- noone of the people involved got kicked from the party. after claryfing the situation with Scamp the security took pictures of us and was told to keep an eye on us, which was absolutely OK, as noone wanted to spoil the party at all
so, Scamp, adding colourful details to your tellings doesn´t change the facts. Don´t be unfair. I apologized for the hassle, and it was not important enough to throw shit at us again. I surely understand your concerns though.
Regards,
Sir
Scoopex - Ghettosceners Ahead ;)
oldskool vs newskool, that is original =D
docd: i resent your implications about me there. (- that im not oldschool ;) )
