pouët.net

And keops, grow up a bit. Fair enough, you don't like the login system, but all your other comments are fairly transparent childish attacks.

Gargaj is improving pouet and is doing it well.

That's the whole problem, you are confusing two different topics. There's the demozoo discussion and the OpenID discussion. This thread is about OpenID. The other one is where you can discuss demozoo. Gasman just implemented OpenID on his own site first to demonstrate it's purpose, but OpenID has nothing to do with demozoo, it is something that can be used by any scene site.

a perfect pouet would have one user: keops.

parapeter : my tone might sound rude, as it may often sound when I write stuff in general but I have nothing at all against Gasman as a person.
I'm just giving feedback about the demozoo/OpenID thing that I don't like as it is now and I see it evolving. Diplomacy has never been my thing and Gasman might take it personal or not (I'm sure he won't) but at least he now might try to improve the layout according to the screenshot I posted and try to add real additional content compared to what Pouet provides.
He might also don't give a shit but in that case this whole thread can be just closed and we can all go back argue about noise prods, oldskool, pain voting system and the various ways to panda bears (oops no, not this one, not here)

sparcus : I should have split my message into 2 messages for the 2 different threads indeed but Gasman got the whole package in one message, sorry for the inconvenience.

No, you didn't miss anything. Maybe it's because he did a nice intro some years ago. But Barti also made some nice stuff years ago... (it must be this french thing :).

Now, a Pouet v1.5 feature request: please give Keops the moderated elite forum he wants, so he can troll there as it pleases him... And a t-shirt feature request: i want "i support gasman" t-shirts for sale at next breakpoint.

To get back to the topic, I absolutely don't understand Scamp's and Keops's and everybody's problem with Gasman's new automatic sceneid.net account creation. Either you talk nonsense, or I'm missing something (both being reasonably well possible).

If you don't use that newly created sceneid.net account for anything but demozoo (where you do it automatically), then you don't even notice it. Then, even if you do notice it (because Gasman told you), then if you don't want to use any OpenID on other sites, or not combined with your "identity" on the scene, then you don't notice the difference either; after all, why use your sceneid.net account for anything? you can just pretend it doesn't exists and *poof*, it doesn't. (nothing "new" is possible or impossible now that you have scamp.sceneid.net without using or even acknowledging it).

I absolutely do not understand how the automatic openid account creation that gasman implemented in demozoo changes *anything* at all. So, (not kidding,) please enlighten me.

It seems to me with my limited knowledge on privacy and security that you actually don't like the original sceneid idea at all, and are somehow blaming gasman for making you realise that. No need to shoot the messenger, guys.

skrebbel : I might be missing something too indeed and that's why I keep trying to figure it out here, maybe not the diplomatic way, I agree :)

Is that an official scene.org statement?

sparcus/ps: Ok, I've read (parts of) the original thread now.

Allow me to update my summary:

24 months ago someone called gasman announced to create the uber-scene-database as a centralized database that replaces pouet.net and other sites.

24 months later his project still is an ugly looking site that appears to contain next to only of data copied from the pouet.net database.

And instead of actually making that site something I'd possibly like more than pouet.net, he's now planning to create another uber-scene-login-system.

Let me guess: In another 24 months, gasman will have finished copying all the data from all scene sites he could get his hands on, then lose interest, and his one-man-show-site will go down the drain.

No, really, sorry, I can't imagine this going to work out. I'd rather have several smaller scene sites focussed on some topic, each maintained by a different bunch of sceners than one ubersite that depends on one single person.

And regarding the "he's enthusiastic and willing to do something for the scene"-part: Very well, make gasman help improve pouet.net. Or make him help scene.org getting a release upload system or a better search system. Or let him create something *new* and innovative himself.

From the standpoint of a happy pouet.net user I'm still thinking that "here is the data hundreds of sceners have donated during the last decade" sucks. This data is of value, and randomly throwing it at people who announce they are planning to do the "next big thing" takes the value out of it. If gasman really is able to create something new and cool, he should be able to form a community to help him himself. Same goes for that OpenID stuff: Don't merge it with anything, don't pass over existing data, if people trust him they can sign up with whatever he comes up with.

(And in case I've missed some obvious point why demozoo appears to be the next big thing to you, making it worth these discussion threads, I apologize)

sounds like a lot of people would quit whining if he made the layout more pretty :)

haha yeah, good point there :)

skrebbel: I'm probably just offtopic in this thread. I'm not complaining about OpenID, actually I'm not complaining at all.

I'm just really puzzled about the fuss - why does anyone actually CARE about what gasman (or demozoo) wants to do? Why are there threads on how to improve a site competing with pouet.net ON pouet.net? Why are proven scene sites like scene.org and pouet.net even considering changing anything just because there is some new scene website out there?

What am I missing here? Is demozoo already a well-respected scene sites used by lots of sceners and I didn't notice it? Did gasman send everyone a check and the postal guy lost mine? ;)

I'm just missing the "hell yeah, go create your uberscenedatabase whatever project if you like, but leave us alone and come back when it's done"-attitude that I really would have expected in such a case.

parapete: Yeah, actually that might help a lot. My first impression when I visited demozoo was "ok, so someone has ripped the data from pouet.net and is presenting demoscene releases in an butt ugly interface. What is this good for?". This could be reduced to a "Oh, a pouet.net clone. What is this good for?" by making the layout pretty indeed ;)

are they really competing? To me, pouet is a community site which by the way has a database. But the bullet points are the prod comments (well, that requires the database) and the bbs. And demozoo at the moment is a pure database site, no community features apart from the oneliner. People don't visit demozoo daily, they visit it when they are looking for something, or just in the mood of randomly looking prods.

All the people bitching about demozoo or openid or gasman should think a little bit before posting, imho. Keops included.

blala: IF demozoo would be supposed to be a plain database site indexing all releases of the scene to enable research - why would it need a new scene-wide ID standard? Why would it need logins AT ALL (besides logins for people maintaining the database)? Sorry, doesn't compute.

Also it doesn't line up with what gasman described what demozoo is going to be:



No, sorry, I'm still just as confused on why this is getting support of any kind. I'm still receiving the replies to my questions as "yeah, it's totally redundant, that's great, don't you get it?!", "I also don't know what this is supposed to be, that's great, don't you get it?!" etc ;)

Maybe I should check my post box again for the missing bribery check?

If that's how you want to define 'fake', yes. If you want to log in to Demozoo and you disapprove of the technical approach I've taken to enabling SceneID logins, then yes, you're going to have to set up a new account that's separate to your existing SceneID account. Or not log in at all. I guess I'll just have to live with that, if I've implemented the most technically appropriate solution but people continue to object on the irrational grounds of "mmhm, I don't like the sound of it". I'm not going to beat about the bush on this - it IS irrational. I've addressed every technical and privacy issue, as far as I can see. I'm happy to explain anything that needs explaining, or fix anything that needs fixing, but as far as I'm concerned this bit of development is done now.

sparcus: Yep, I could support conventional SceneID logins (with more development work, more complexity in the user interface, and more administrative wrangling with scene.org) but there's no useful reason to, so I'd rather spend my time implementing useful stuff instead. Life's too short to try and placate everyone.


OK. The definitive reason why I'm building a new site rather than implementing new features on Pouet: it's because the new features I've done (which is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what I intend to do) are actually pretty damn complex. Taking the individual credit stuff: it might look simple, but actually doing everything properly - handling all the details of people with multiple nicks, people with the same nicks as other people, people who don't have multiple nicks but like to write their nicks in l33tsp34k in nfo files every now and then - is a bit of a nightmare. And because I'm doing this for pleasure, I've decided that:

1) I want to implement it in something better than raw PHP+SQL. (Ruby on Rails, since you ask.)
2) I don't want to build it on top of a 7 year old hack-filled system. (I refer you to parapete's comment. Also note that the one significant bit of work I've done on the Pouet codebase was extending the 'party year' field from 2 digits to 4. This was in 2006. Enough said.)
3) I don't want to build it on top of a system that 5000 opinionated people have strong preconceptions about what it's meant to do, and will have an endless flamewar about every little change. I'd much rather have the freedom to try out more radical ideas, and quite frankly, if this is the sort of outcry that happens when I implement a login system that works a bit differently to what people are used to, then I think I've made the right choice.

If development of actual innovative features on Demozoo has been a bit slow to happen (and it has), doing the equivalent on pouet would have been running-through-treacle-attached-to-a-bungee-cord slow.



No chance. I've been working on this for far too long to let a silly flamewar put me off...


I look forward to changing your mind some time in the (hopefully not too distant) future then :-)


Me too :-) It would suit me just fine if the people who don't 'get' it yet would take that attitude, rather than the "OMG gasman is abusing his position and stealing data" one...

Gasman: thanks for the explanation and please fix the layout if you can (on the screenshot I posted) ;)

I'm still doubtful like Scamp though. Wait and see... ;)

hopefully I'm not in the "omg you're flaming gasman and his efforts" group just because i have serious considerations about affiliating my sceneid with an openid account.

yes. for security reasons.

i have nothing against demozoo as a concept, i did log in and add a few things myself a few days ago when i remembered the site again, yes it's ugly but hey it's a project in the works, obviously not done.

what i DO have a problem with is having my sceneid which is only in use in a small community getting affiliated automatically with something which is going to be in use on a much bigger scale.

yes. for security reasons.

the idea of sceneid itself getting hacked/misused is there, but it's a small risk, seeing how the demoscene consists of a relatively small group of people.

the idea of openid (if i get it right) is going to spread worldwide, in a huge scale, and it's going to be a must for creative young minds to exploit to the fullest..

at least that's what pessimistic me thinks, and for that reason I want the right to stay off it if i want to.. not because i don't see the advantage, after all, I am using sceneid. but because i see the disadvantage..

staying off demozoo will fix the problem for now, which is a shame, since like said i have nothing against the site, but hopefully this will at least be the users own choice if it's implemented on other sites.

i'm with leijaa. i don't want any automagic sceneid2openid feature.

I'm with gasman on this matter plus some slightly arrogant but genuine amusement towards the "DO NOT WANT" crowd who still failed to present _ONE_ rational argument.

kb: i would find it amusing too if it wasn't so tragic ;)

omg my sceneid is stolen! some pouet troll is impersonating me and i'm sure he's a single step away to leeching my bank accounts!