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AI crap in compo entries?

category: general [glöplog]
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Let's agree to disagree then.

Oh. OK. Sorry, didn't see that.
added on the 2024-04-08 10:58:37 by 4gentE 4gentE
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Because you used to deem it good to the point of disliking me criticize it.
You criticising the was a-okay, it just became somewhat tedious when you randomly repeated the same thing over and over again.
added on the 2024-04-08 10:58:43 by Krill Krill
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Who would release such a demo in that world? Where would he get the motivation? Where would he get the forgotten knowledge? Who would be the cheering people? This has more holes than than a swiss cheese.


What Krill was saying with his ironic statement is that everything would "normalize" again. People want to see bullshit, otherwise there won't be a market for Facebook Reels. And that we as those "who are stuck with the past and who are not ahead of the pack" have to accept that the world is always developing like that.

And that there's no way to defend the demoscene from this kind of degradation.

Face it, 4gentE, IT'S OVER! ;-)
added on the 2024-04-08 10:59:32 by neoman neoman
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You criticising the was a-okay, it just became somewhat tedious when you randomly repeated the same thing over and over again.

OK, I understand if I did that. I'm not so sure I did it, but if I did, I understand.
added on the 2024-04-08 11:00:39 by 4gentE 4gentE
It's over. The bastards killed Kenny. ;-)
added on the 2024-04-08 11:02:09 by 4gentE 4gentE
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What Krill was saying with his ironic statement
There was no irony, or which statement do you refer to?
added on the 2024-04-08 11:02:52 by Krill Krill
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And i bet that in those dystopian "they don't make demos like they used to any more" times, people'll cheer whenever somebody comes along and releases a demo that is clearly superior to the then-standard drivel. =)


Clearly no irony!
added on the 2024-04-08 11:03:35 by neoman neoman
I was serious. What is demoscene if not trying to surpass other people's productions?
added on the 2024-04-08 11:06:47 by Krill Krill
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Who would release such a demo in that world? Where would he get the motivation? Where would he get the forgotten knowledge? Who would be the cheering people?


Forgotten knowledge? The old machines at least are better documentated than ever. The information is available to everyone with a few mouseclicks. When this stuff was new I didn't even know where to order the real reference manuals. Instead I spent all my money for expensive rip-off books from publishing houses in my native language, for about twice the money and half the information.

Where you get the motivation from? That's an interesting topic. I would ask myself if I'm doing this for cheering people, and if I'd do this even if there were no cheering people at all. I have a few answers to that, but of course they are personal and might not apply to everybody :-)
added on the 2024-04-08 11:09:22 by bifat bifat
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Forgotten knowledge? The old machines at least are better documentated than ever.

I was thinking more of "visual" knowledge about perspective, proportions, lighting, color theory, brushstrokes, manual pixel placement etc. But let's stick to motivation. One can possess such a knowledge but be discouraged from using it because what's the point in a world described there by Krill.
added on the 2024-04-08 11:25:46 by 4gentE 4gentE
How's your handwriting skill? Mine is increasingly shitty because I type everything.
added on the 2024-04-08 11:27:07 by 4gentE 4gentE
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we will likely have a bunch of good artists disillusioned by the lack of community comity about the subject, who will then eventually stop caring and leave

Hasn't that already happen to a degree, due to the ever-increasing focus on code and technical achievements? In the late 90s and early 2000s there seemed to be a wave of interest in design and making stuff look cool, but it seems like most of that was replaced by raymarched fractals at some point.
added on the 2024-04-08 11:28:19 by absence absence
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One can possess such a knowledge but be discouraged from using it [...]


So, I submitted that pic at Syntax 2023 pixel graphics compo. It has pretty much all that technical mambo-jumbo you are describing and more (storytelling, composition etc). And yet when it goes to peoples' preferences, it trails behind a (yet another) cutesy cat face and barely manages to stay ahead of a (yet another) skull with an 'aftereffects' layer.

Now, I know both those pics are from respected people in the C64 scene who do know their stuff when it comes to producing nice pixel pics. I don't want to disregard their work, and in no way to complain about that compo result.

I only bring this up because you are talking about how a graphician should feel and his motivation. Put AI aside for a second. Should I be getting discouraged from entering compos with a platform other than C64 or Amiga, then? Should I be getting discouraged from entering compos with anything outside the 'girl-face, skull, cute animal' all-star triptych? Should I get inline with 'scene politics' that go by the norms of 'platform vote', 'group vote'?

Nah, because the prior reason I do my pixels is the personal satisfaction. Then, it's the people I can relate to. Finally, it's the fact that, if I didn't make/release those pixels within the demoscene, I wouldn't have made them in the first place. I am not an illustrator nor a graphics designer (I do work in the broader graphics design area, but I don't consider myself to be one).

Will AI crap in the scene make any difference at all with regards to what I do and why I do it? Nope, I will continue to do the stuff that make me happy. Ofcourse it's not the same for everyone. Some scene graphicians have their concerns and they do express it. Within that 'how to regulate it, then' context, I wrote a few ideas some pages ago, and that's all I could contribute to the matter, I think. So, please don't just assume that every scene graphician should have absolutely the same concerns and/or same way of thinking. And please keep in mind that potentially de-motivating things are happening in the demoscene since ever and it's the very people involved in the demoscene who chose to not give more than 2 cents about it.
100% what rexbeng wrote.

Plus, if we're going to talk about "discouraging" people to enter the scene, my hot take would be that the upvoting/downvoting system on this very website has caused far more inertia around this, right here and now in the present, than AI could speculatively cause in the future. I know this for a fact - so many people raise it, and just this weekend at a demoparty two people who were respectively "totally new" and "wanting to do more future stuff" raised the fear of downthumbing/snappy negative comments on here as something holding them back. They didn't talk about AI.

And hey, if we want to go analytic about it (as on previous pages of this thread), that *can* be discussed in relation to the modern forms of communication technology that have reshaped the nature of work and the labour market (example: when you're leaving a store and there's a touch screen smiley face/sad face thing to rate your customer service experience).
added on the 2024-04-08 13:05:27 by Tom Tom
If negative comments and downthumbs discourage them rather than motivate to improve their skills, then.... they may be a bad fit for demoscene.
added on the 2024-04-08 13:13:25 by Krill Krill
I know of at least one demoscener quitting due to the "state of art" in making animdemos...
added on the 2024-04-08 13:18:36 by bifat bifat
I don't understand you guys. I just can't get why exactly should we applaud this grifting tech that aims to deskill and exploit people. The tech that wants to relieve people of what we came to call "creative work". Because it can be used creatively? Really? So can anything, as I mention before. What is this? "Give art back to engineers"? But OK. Maybe I'm just too old.
added on the 2024-04-08 13:32:52 by 4gentE 4gentE
Nobody said you should applaud it. Please stop making things up over and over and over again, and accuse people of their wrongdoings and questionable ethics based on your hallucinations. Please.
added on the 2024-04-08 13:34:26 by bifat bifat
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I was serious. What is demoscene if not trying to surpass other people's productions?


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If negative comments and downthumbs discourage them rather than motivate to improve their skills, then.... they may be a bad fit for demoscene.


It's quite interesting you know how sceners need to feel and react ;-) It's not always about surpassing other people's production or satifsying all the other people in our little subculture in order to make them give you a thumb!

Because what rexbang said:

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Nah, because the prior reason I do my pixels is the personal satisfaction.


Actually it is that simple. Better work with those people. Because when they get "sorted out" i.e. their craft is being done by an AI-driven technology, then there's also less reason to do pixels to get this personal satisfaction. That makes them suffer and will make this community starve out.
added on the 2024-04-08 13:47:56 by neoman neoman
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Please stop making things up over and over and over again, and accuse people of their wrongdoings and questionable ethics based on your hallucinations. Please

OK. Goodbye. Great prod. Keep it up!
added on the 2024-04-08 13:54:22 by 4gentE 4gentE
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In the late 90s and early 2000s there seemed to be a wave of interest in design and making stuff look cool, but it seems like most of that was replaced by raymarched fractals at some point.

That's more the effect and not the cause - starting from 2007 realtime graphical quality jumped up, we didn't do proper outreach to new artists and focused a lot of our demoscene presentation on coders, coders didn't want to spend time creating tooling UX to pull / keep artists in, potential artists saw Unity and UE and got used to that standard, and now have no use for the scene, coders now just do raymarched fractals because that's what you can do without an artist.

The AI syndrome is basically just a result of all of that, with coders saying "raymarched fractals, but I need some textures / pictures on top of it too but I don't want to deal with artists", and of course some artists make demos in UE / Unity because they don't want to deal with coders.

So yeah, we're in a great place.
added on the 2024-04-08 14:04:10 by Gargaj Gargaj
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It's not always about surpassing other people's production or satifsying all the other people in our little subculture in order to make them give you a thumb!
Another false dichotomy? :) I mean, yes, yes of course. Also i thought people would have gotten the memo by now that "we" don't care so much about the thumbs. =)
added on the 2024-04-08 14:06:47 by Krill Krill
Hey, I'm pretty sure one could make a quick diagram of the main arguments & counter-arguments, or we could go on for 25 more pages, ahah :)

Then depending on one's own motives, the personal conclusion could be drawn. I'm no artist, but personally I'd have trouble disregarding the context (required efforts // existing tools and other productions). I tend to think the scene is a very peculiar social & technical alchemy. There must be a common reason why it gets back to such an active state in the last few years.
added on the 2024-04-08 14:14:47 by mahenou mahenou
I read " or we could go on for 25 more years, ahah " =)

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