Beginner demo section for pouet
category: general [glöplog]
Too many sceners wanting to setup a prison-framework of judgment of other people's creations. There should be no fine-grain mechanism of valuing demos (thumup/percentage rating, etc for gfx, dsign, music, whetever). It will kill people's urge to just "create something" to be subject to such inhuman evaluation
If you really dislike something, then explain your mighty judgmental opinion in words. Don't expect Pouet to be a demo judgement framework.
It's quite disgusting for supposedly "creative" minded people to comeup with such ideas, really.
If you really dislike something, then explain your mighty judgmental opinion in words. Don't expect Pouet to be a demo judgement framework.
It's quite disgusting for supposedly "creative" minded people to comeup with such ideas, really.
I love the "thumbing with categories" idea from jco.
i´d like to echo yzi´s statement: what good has thumbing down ever done?
- see youtube: there is a group of lamers under way, that just look for videos that have only positive votes, no negatives, just to thumb them down. (resulting in the X people have no Y youtube comment meme.)
why?
- see csdb: there is a bunch of people that use the anonymous voting system to obviously vote stuff down. (there: ranking reasons. (woah that is so lame!))
the *only* place where biased voting actually works is imdb. because of the really good user-review culture. helps me choosing to watch a movie or not about 99% of the time.
- see youtube: there is a group of lamers under way, that just look for videos that have only positive votes, no negatives, just to thumb them down. (resulting in the X people have no Y youtube comment meme.)
why?
- see csdb: there is a bunch of people that use the anonymous voting system to obviously vote stuff down. (there: ranking reasons. (woah that is so lame!))
the *only* place where biased voting actually works is imdb. because of the really good user-review culture. helps me choosing to watch a movie or not about 99% of the time.
There a lot of places where voting works perfectly. Slashdot, Reddit for example. Asking why we still have downvotes is a silly question imho. Upvotes are only worthwhile if you have doenvotes as well.
things that are more disturbing on a prodpage than thumb-downs:
- posting big, stupid, random pictures that deface the thread (why is it even allowed to post pics in prod-comments? i can see no benefit case in that)
- unrelated flamewars
- ...
- posting big, stupid, random pictures that deface the thread (why is it even allowed to post pics in prod-comments? i can see no benefit case in that)
- unrelated flamewars
- ...
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why is it even allowed to post pics in prod-comments? i can see no benefit case in that
Screenshots of bugs, glitches and crashes, similar demos or other productions a demo is said to copy.
If we loose the thumb down we actually loose half of the voting range. The pig would be the new down-vote.
I'm perfectly fine with downvoting the 52. edition of a "Penishure" wild, if it simply sucks imo. Where's the problem with that? Also people are pretty polite on newcomer products (much more than on regular prods), so I don't think that's a problem either...
I like jcos' idea btw!
I'm perfectly fine with downvoting the 52. edition of a "Penishure" wild, if it simply sucks imo. Where's the problem with that? Also people are pretty polite on newcomer products (much more than on regular prods), so I don't think that's a problem either...
I like jcos' idea btw!
@numtek:
Don't agree with you. At vimeo there are only »likes« and this works really well.
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Upvotes are only worthwhile if you have doenvotes as well.
Don't agree with you. At vimeo there are only »likes« and this works really well.
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the *only* place where biased voting actually works is imdb. because of the really good user-review culture. helps me choosing to watch a movie or not about 99% of the time.
true.. you can be confiden that most 7+ films are decent... there are always exceptions though
however for some things, like on amazon for example people are paid to write reviews for products they don't even own!
I'd be shocked if it weren't the case in the movie industry..
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i´d like to echo yzi´s statement: what good has thumbing down ever done?
It certainly gave me motivation if it came from a person who I knew was competent.
As for JCO's idea, wouldn't granulating the (at this point super simple and easily indicative) voting cause people to be even less verbose in the comments? Even now it's rare to see more than 5 words in a comment, and empty comments are still rampant, which is indifferent at best and insulting at worst. If you think the music was great but the rest wasn't, make a comment about that - I'm sure the authors appreciate it more than just a bunch of numbers. The current up/down system provides a simple metric: do people like it or not.
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It will kill people's urge to just "create something"
The scene was never about "creating something", it was always about competing and trying to be better than the rest.
I agree with Gargaj.
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The scene was never about "creating something", it was always about competing and trying to be better than the rest.
I actually disagree with that. Competition is an element, yes, but especially in the early days a considerable portion of stuff was made direct-to-BBS (like musicdisks).
Gargaj, I know and remember. But on a BBS, sysops often nuked crap products, which was the form of judgement/competition, also crap products were not spread by traders out of fear for their uploads being nuked for spreading crap. So, in fact, competition was even much more fierce.
and there's the biannual 'new voting system' thing again. why cant people just go with subjectivity being subjective? i understand newbies are infamiliar with the ins and outs at first to do proper shit filtering on pouet, but you can learn that quickly. i mean, same would happen if you read comments on youtube captures. so it's not a pouet problem per se, just the digital bitch attitude on the intarwebs :)
Gargaj, even though yeah, you have a point - in a BBS-based scene carreer, your initial impulse was indeed to "create something", to see something that you've done circulating through the boards. But after producing crap, and getting appropriate feedback (files getting nuked, you being ridiculed on bbs "walls" and in circulated textfiles, the climate in fact was sometimes WAY more harsh than on pouet), you had the big urge to get better and to "show them all". So, competition spirit was triggered pretty quickly.
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The scene was never about "creating something", it was always about competing and trying to be better than the rest.
Makes me so happy that the scene is dead now and we can keep on doing things the sensible way.
"in the olden days" BBS's were expensive to call in the UK, the other thing outside straight word of mouth / hand to hand disk swapping was PD libraries. Some must have made a stack of cash from some demo's. For a period many demo's had anti-PD library intro's. however, they were also a good way to gauge popularity and the PD adverts in magazines actually promoted the popular ones.
Compos belong to the scene culture. Compos are fun. Pouet is not a compo. Pouet's thumb system, particularly down-thumbing, has allowed the scene to develop behaviours that are dumb and not fun. I think the scene, and Pouet, would be a better place without down-thumbing.
There have been other things in the culture in the past that were similarly dumb, like sending "fuckings" and other types of hating (which I guess wasn't always completely non-serious). Luckily, people have grown up, and now sending fuckings is only used as a joke.
I'm not saying that it's not possible to use down-thumbing in a constructive way, but in practice, such features just seem to create general dumbness.
There have been other things in the culture in the past that were similarly dumb, like sending "fuckings" and other types of hating (which I guess wasn't always completely non-serious). Luckily, people have grown up, and now sending fuckings is only used as a joke.
I'm not saying that it's not possible to use down-thumbing in a constructive way, but in practice, such features just seem to create general dumbness.
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by Gargaj:
As for JCO's idea, wouldn't granulating the (at this point super simple and easily indicative) voting cause people to be even less verbose in the comments? Even now it's rare to see more than 5 words in a comment, and empty comments are still rampant, which is indifferent at best and insulting at worst. If you think the music was great but the rest wasn't, make a comment about that - I'm sure the authors appreciate it more than just a bunch of numbers. The current up/down system provides a simple metric: do people like it or not.
I kind of like the ability not to have a comment, for upvotes at least. What's wrong with just saying "I like this"? I may not have anything specific to write that's not silly and contrived ("Looked great on the stream!"). When I do, I can include it, otherwise why write something hollow and empty?
As to segregation of voting in to metrics and categories, I've noticed places like Remix64 offer such things, but it seems that largely people eschew the longer detailed review for a single line comment and a rating for the entire work.
It might be possible, like those sites, to bridge the gap between by offering a 1 to X rating system. However this has a large problem with all the existing data and productions rated up, middle, and down. It wouldn't be fair if they were just literally mapped to min, median, max, especially knowing that some people probably would have given something in between the poles and piggie if they could have.
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by Dipswitch:
The scene was never about "creating something", it was always about competing and trying to be better than the rest.
I think, like others, I have to disagree. Even in the mostly-post-BBS world of today, plenty of people in the scene make and put things out into the world outside of compos. LFT is one such person. I know he's released some stuff just for the fun of it. There's also people here on Pouet who release prods not tied to parties. If it was never about creating something, just for the hell of it, why would anyone have bothered with those things?
I consider myself at least tangentially part of the scene and I release stuff because I can. Not mountains of trash just to say I release stuff, but various fun things that are sceneishly related. Some of you guys who got key fobs from my (either by mail or at Revision) wouldn't have one if I didn't do that. I wasn't even completely sure after making one that people would want one, but I did it anyway and the part of me that was sure was proven right.
AMcBain: What do you think it would have felt like, if you had known that there's going to be a keyfob category on Pouet, and people will be presented, along your prod entry, a question to rate your keyfobs in terms of thumb up, thumb down, or piggy? ;) For many other types of things, that's what some wise person has considered to be appropriate...
Well, actually, being featured at all would be AWESOME :) Plus, I've seen a picture of what happens after using it every day since getting it at Revision. So I know there's room to do better to improve the lifespan (which I am working on). So in truth, if having it here opened it up to more comments and ideas, even if some people didn't like the concept, that might be quite interesting (but not enough to be featured on that titular TV show with Stephen Fry).
I've kept the keyfob in my keyring since Revision without any bad side-effects...
a) what makes voting at imdb work better isnt the better voting culture, but simple the much higher amount of casted votes.
b) i would remove the voting completely, as i dont see any value in it at all. if you cant express your opinion in a comment, get lost.
b) i would remove the voting completely, as i dont see any value in it at all. if you cant express your opinion in a comment, get lost.
I'm Batman.
