Releasing at parties
category: general [glöplog]
Keops: nobody is forcing you to read, move on, move on :)
Quote:
I'm again criticised because the only think that matters of a demo if it entertains you or not.
No, the critics are because you openly admit affecting votes at parties.
affecting? so you would have let the graphic that was previously released on another party (more os less) win? (That was the only time I had to "affect" votes).
Cool then!
Cool then!
no, i would've disqualified it _before_ the voting - which is the duty of the graphic compo organizer.
Ok mr.perfect! we just weren't able to find the entries from the party where the graphic was presented _before_ the voting.
see, and with public voting we've got up to 3000 eyes (audience plus DTV) watching the compo. Somebody WILL complain.
That's not necessarily related to the voting system, anyone watching the compos at the party place can do that. And... I hope this is my last post here.
Again, pouetise this please!
Again, pouetise this please!
At TG we allowed a cheater (changed the colors of a previously released production) to be voted for, "win" the compo, come on stage.. and then show the audience the two intros running next to each other while yelling "FUCKING FAKER!" in his face and the audience booing him off-stage.. and then give the 1st prize to the _real_ winner of the compo.
Ah, such beautiful memories.. :)
Ah, such beautiful memories.. :)
... and then be told to STFU.
gloom: which prod? WHICH PROD????? ;)
You could have it so that there's a jury and a public vote put to together: a compromise.
The public votes as normal and when it's done voting you make a another list where the order of the demos (don't touch votes) is re-arranged by the jury votes. Next you take one of the lists and multiply all votes by .xx, depending you much more you value the jury or the public opinion (or how much the crowd pleasing, local bias etc. you think affect the vote). You could also use this to "help" the more artistic demos. Finally you add the votes together and give away prizes.
If the concern is that the public who (depending on who's watching) doesn't give as much attention to single aspects of a demo as it maybe should you have to give guidelines to the jury to focus on the specifics such as effect difficulty level, artistic merit etc. I think it's matter of emphasizing the qualities that counter cheap vote-grabbing tricks.
The public votes as normal and when it's done voting you make a another list where the order of the demos (don't touch votes) is re-arranged by the jury votes. Next you take one of the lists and multiply all votes by .xx, depending you much more you value the jury or the public opinion (or how much the crowd pleasing, local bias etc. you think affect the vote). You could also use this to "help" the more artistic demos. Finally you add the votes together and give away prizes.
If the concern is that the public who (depending on who's watching) doesn't give as much attention to single aspects of a demo as it maybe should you have to give guidelines to the jury to focus on the specifics such as effect difficulty level, artistic merit etc. I think it's matter of emphasizing the qualities that counter cheap vote-grabbing tricks.
Quote:
when something very well made and great in almost every aspect loses out because it misses one small part of the picture - e.g. it doesnt have crowd-pleasing direction
Smash: you just have to face the facts: The crowd-pleasing direction is a must, if you want good results in compo.
What it ISN'T is not a criteria for YOU to like what you have seen (or perhaps created yourself)
So, just leave it at that and accept that not all prods are recognized for that they intended to be?
I can see why people can get frustrated and pissed off when the results of the voting don`t reflect how many hours and months of work that have been put into the contribution.
Especially graphics compos sucks in that, where people who have handdrawned unique pictures for months get beaten by a huge amount by people that have scanned and "refixed" an already existing picture done by someone else.
Same with demos where coders have spent months/years making state of the art 3D engines, modellers spent months on making quality models etc etc only to get beaten by some lowquality effects demos with some joke references or 8 bit game references.
So why waste time on making something decent when the audience are like teenagers that easily accept every mainstreamish trends, easy to please, no quality required.
Especially graphics compos sucks in that, where people who have handdrawned unique pictures for months get beaten by a huge amount by people that have scanned and "refixed" an already existing picture done by someone else.
Same with demos where coders have spent months/years making state of the art 3D engines, modellers spent months on making quality models etc etc only to get beaten by some lowquality effects demos with some joke references or 8 bit game references.
So why waste time on making something decent when the audience are like teenagers that easily accept every mainstreamish trends, easy to please, no quality required.
crowd vote : the little scratch on the roof of your mouth that would heal if you stopped teasing it... but you can't.
Archmage: what? :)
Nutman: I *think* it was this one but I honestly don't remember. It was a "3 Amigos" (*cough*Push Entertainment*cough*), that I do remember.
Nutman: I *think* it was this one but I honestly don't remember. It was a "3 Amigos" (*cough*Push Entertainment*cough*), that I do remember.
lets try again..
time for pictures of buckets and seals yet?
time for pictures of buckets and seals yet?
Gloom: Funny story, and it`s a real story so it makes it even funnier :) Muahhahahahha
Zplex: I think both Dozern and BetongApe has more details, if they read this thread. :)
Gloom: Sorry my friend. I wasn't quick enough. Not being able to resist the flogging of the proverbial dead horse, my remark was aimed at kb and an episode with a frothing madman a couple of pages ago.
btw instead of trying to minimize the votes of supposedly 'stupid' masses, why not trying to teach them ? :)
i mean i would like to see demomakers give lil speeches before or after the projection of their works, for example in order to emphasize the generative aspect of the code or any special labor spent in algo-finding, modeling, drawing, music-making, etc...
the drawback is that the demo compo would last til early morning (!) and that it would encourage name-voting... but i think it's an idea to explore :p
and as keops said, aren't we all sometimes 'stupid', playing FPS games or banging to some dance hit, drunk or influenced by mood and fun value to vote ? There is no real objective vote.
scamp's method is a very good idea too, i think all prizes for the podium (#1, #2, #3) should be almost of the same value, that would disarm never-ending controversies about #1 'stealing' the prizes of moral winners #2 or #3...
i mean i would like to see demomakers give lil speeches before or after the projection of their works, for example in order to emphasize the generative aspect of the code or any special labor spent in algo-finding, modeling, drawing, music-making, etc...
the drawback is that the demo compo would last til early morning (!) and that it would encourage name-voting... but i think it's an idea to explore :p
and as keops said, aren't we all sometimes 'stupid', playing FPS games or banging to some dance hit, drunk or influenced by mood and fun value to vote ? There is no real objective vote.
scamp's method is a very good idea too, i think all prizes for the podium (#1, #2, #3) should be almost of the same value, that would disarm never-ending controversies about #1 'stealing' the prizes of moral winners #2 or #3...
"Teach the stupid masses" ? Sorry Zest but this sounds so much like those haughty art and movie critics, the more pompous, the better.
I'm not sure Evoke's audience qualifies as "stupid masses" and what do you want to teach "them" anyway? How to stay in the line? How to make serious boring flybies? How to implement Siggraph papers without any sense of fun, innovation or creativity? How to copy nVidia's tech demos?
That's the very point of this whole retarded discussion and retarded thread. There is NOTHING to teach and there is no ideal demo with any ideal recipe. What makes demoscene and compos interesting is the fact that they can feature totally different types of prods, fortunately.
I'm not sure Evoke's audience qualifies as "stupid masses" and what do you want to teach "them" anyway? How to stay in the line? How to make serious boring flybies? How to implement Siggraph papers without any sense of fun, innovation or creativity? How to copy nVidia's tech demos?
That's the very point of this whole retarded discussion and retarded thread. There is NOTHING to teach and there is no ideal demo with any ideal recipe. What makes demoscene and compos interesting is the fact that they can feature totally different types of prods, fortunately.
that's the problem about the whole discussion. it's not about rewarding "good" demos (whatever that may exactly mean for you) at all. it's about snobbery: about people who think their taste or judgement is superior to that of everyone else (or at least superior to that of "most people", again, whoever they are).
i don't like snobs. you're entitled to your own opinion.
i don't like snobs. you're entitled to your own opinion.
keops that's not what i meant, i just meant that i would like the makers to explain their works, that's all.
i remember a premiere of Brotherhood of the Wolf, the movie is a mixed bag of pure gamer-pleasing action flick and cinephile shots/references, very indigestible :/
but the director Christophe Gans was there, he's a genius movie critic, it was a delightful experience hearing him explain all his motivations and works. I did appreciate the movie way more afterwards :)
same for the upcoming Uwe Boll infamous movie, it will prolly be appreciated more by those who attended his conference at last breakpoint!
i remember a premiere of Brotherhood of the Wolf, the movie is a mixed bag of pure gamer-pleasing action flick and cinephile shots/references, very indigestible :/
but the director Christophe Gans was there, he's a genius movie critic, it was a delightful experience hearing him explain all his motivations and works. I did appreciate the movie way more afterwards :)
same for the upcoming Uwe Boll infamous movie, it will prolly be appreciated more by those who attended his conference at last breakpoint!
it's also about false expectations.
make a technically ambitious production and you'll get the respect of the coders.
make a really fun entry and you'll have the audience on your side.
now combine these two things (see, that's what people are missing sometimes...or often..) and you will have winner-type demo.
don't expect the whole audience to judge the hard work you put in it, and don't expect everyone to like your style/theme/humor/whatever.
now suppose there was no clear winner-type demo on whatever compo; and the audience voted in favor of a fun entry.
-is it the fault of the audience?
-blame the voting system?
-accuse the group of doing that on purpose? (oh noes, what a crime!)
get over it!
there's more to demos than myriads of effects, more than a funny remark between the scenes, more than a catchy soundtrack.
it's a package. get the package right, and I promise the audience will show gratitude.
make a technically ambitious production and you'll get the respect of the coders.
make a really fun entry and you'll have the audience on your side.
now combine these two things (see, that's what people are missing sometimes...or often..) and you will have winner-type demo.
don't expect the whole audience to judge the hard work you put in it, and don't expect everyone to like your style/theme/humor/whatever.
now suppose there was no clear winner-type demo on whatever compo; and the audience voted in favor of a fun entry.
-is it the fault of the audience?
-blame the voting system?
-accuse the group of doing that on purpose? (oh noes, what a crime!)
get over it!
there's more to demos than myriads of effects, more than a funny remark between the scenes, more than a catchy soundtrack.
it's a package. get the package right, and I promise the audience will show gratitude.
