hardware class compos instead of platform compos?
category: general [glöplog]
scamp: Well, from my personal point of view, this has been a flame thread from the start, but that's no excuse for my posting, and I apologise for it. sparcus was self-claimed until you filled in the missing pieces, since he gave no credentials. Lastly, I wish you the best of luck with your party. Allow whatever you want, but I still do not find your arguments to be valid.
sparcus: I don't consider him to have been very polite at all, but I'll be generous enough to consider that being due to my monomaniacal Mac bias, even though I'm an old PC scener. As for us being entitled to something, no, not more than any other scener is.
MadenMann: I'm sorry to hear that. It seems that it's nigh impossible to avoid judging the entirety of the scene based on a few individuals' opinions.
The three of us, me, gammawave and lator object to Breakpoint not allowing Mac demos in regular compos. We have made our arguments as to why. None of these arguments have been well-received. Moreover, we have been accused of collective name-voting two months before the party has even begun. Lastly, we have had our personal opinions projected onto the entirety of the Mac scene, as if we were its official spokespersons.
sparcus: I don't consider him to have been very polite at all, but I'll be generous enough to consider that being due to my monomaniacal Mac bias, even though I'm an old PC scener. As for us being entitled to something, no, not more than any other scener is.
MadenMann: I'm sorry to hear that. It seems that it's nigh impossible to avoid judging the entirety of the scene based on a few individuals' opinions.
The three of us, me, gammawave and lator object to Breakpoint not allowing Mac demos in regular compos. We have made our arguments as to why. None of these arguments have been well-received. Moreover, we have been accused of collective name-voting two months before the party has even begun. Lastly, we have had our personal opinions projected onto the entirety of the Mac scene, as if we were its official spokespersons.
[23:04] <oddke> scamp, i am a mac user :P
[23:04] <scamp> oddke: ok, you are an owner of an UGLY overpriced pc where no real software runs. oh yeah, and your mouse is broken, too.
At least we know where scamps stands, now ;)
[23:04] <scamp> oddke: ok, you are an owner of an UGLY overpriced pc where no real software runs. oh yeah, and your mouse is broken, too.
At least we know where scamps stands, now ;)
MadenMann: Yes, and most parties have solved this by asking people to bring their own hardware, or ask if someone could lend a machine. None of these would pose a problem or cause a great deal of work. Carrying a PowerBook over to the crew and plugging it into the projector doesn't take too long.
As for requests, I haven't made any, I've argued against the logic of scamp's and sparcus' arguments. It may also help if you read the discussion up to that point, as it is quite relevant to my postings.
However, this thread is for all intents and purposes over, with nothing having changed since it started.
As for requests, I haven't made any, I've argued against the logic of scamp's and sparcus' arguments. It may also help if you read the discussion up to that point, as it is quite relevant to my postings.
However, this thread is for all intents and purposes over, with nothing having changed since it started.
About the namevoting:
I would only namevote if K2 was reborn or if Keso entered the compo, no matter platform.
Having this said i dont see why "us mac.scene.org regulars" (ehem) would vote for macentries as we have all mostly been producing pc productions, and i dont think that will change as we use the platform we're on at the time being. When we want to bring our powerbook/ibook to germany from sweden to be able to sit down and finish up our productions to participate in your compos I think you DO owe some respect, atleast i have been very happy about all active sceners visiting any of our underscore parties, and has never yelled at anyone who has had suggestions to compos, acctually we have always managed to work stuff out, but then again, we had a small compocrew, where we separated organizing for each compos from the start giving plenty of liberty for the responsible organizer for each compo, and somehow no visitor complained about or comporules, nor hardware.
Maybe this is something you should learn from instead of throwing bull on us more or less claiming having no idea about how to organizing a demoparty, hence we obviously have been more successfull in responding to the participants requests (other partyorganizer than me that i know from us lameass whiners being elmindreda who was a part of the deadline organizingteam).
However, i dont feel like bitching about how hard it is to arrange a demoparty, even tho we did go minus 4000Euro one underscore we didnt bitch about that, we simply turned the numbers around for next year and went plus instead.. And until this very moment i havent ever been commenting about being a partyorganizer simply because i dont think it really has anything to do with the demoscene, but hearing this "partyorganizers" trying to teach us how hard it is to arrange a demoparty kindof makes me sad, you are obviously not into the scene in any other way than being able to fix some deals with misc. locale politicians and lowquality companies and/or being able to fix some sponsors, wich is what demopartyorganizing is all about.
Me myself not being counted as the most serious demoscener have been involved in about 30 productions last three years, where about 10 prods has been top3 in pc intro or democompos.
Yet, iam the one to prove myself.
I would only namevote if K2 was reborn or if Keso entered the compo, no matter platform.
Having this said i dont see why "us mac.scene.org regulars" (ehem) would vote for macentries as we have all mostly been producing pc productions, and i dont think that will change as we use the platform we're on at the time being. When we want to bring our powerbook/ibook to germany from sweden to be able to sit down and finish up our productions to participate in your compos I think you DO owe some respect, atleast i have been very happy about all active sceners visiting any of our underscore parties, and has never yelled at anyone who has had suggestions to compos, acctually we have always managed to work stuff out, but then again, we had a small compocrew, where we separated organizing for each compos from the start giving plenty of liberty for the responsible organizer for each compo, and somehow no visitor complained about or comporules, nor hardware.
Maybe this is something you should learn from instead of throwing bull on us more or less claiming having no idea about how to organizing a demoparty, hence we obviously have been more successfull in responding to the participants requests (other partyorganizer than me that i know from us lameass whiners being elmindreda who was a part of the deadline organizingteam).
However, i dont feel like bitching about how hard it is to arrange a demoparty, even tho we did go minus 4000Euro one underscore we didnt bitch about that, we simply turned the numbers around for next year and went plus instead.. And until this very moment i havent ever been commenting about being a partyorganizer simply because i dont think it really has anything to do with the demoscene, but hearing this "partyorganizers" trying to teach us how hard it is to arrange a demoparty kindof makes me sad, you are obviously not into the scene in any other way than being able to fix some deals with misc. locale politicians and lowquality companies and/or being able to fix some sponsors, wich is what demopartyorganizing is all about.
Me myself not being counted as the most serious demoscener have been involved in about 30 productions last three years, where about 10 prods has been top3 in pc intro or democompos.
Yet, iam the one to prove myself.
It just gets better...
Nice to know that we are dealing with an openminded person without prejudice:
[23:24] <scamp> like... imagine a party place with MACs... everyone will laugh at you...
[23:25] <scamp> gammawave: yeah, my true view regarding macs is:
[23:25] <scamp> I've never met a SINGLE mac-user in my life that wasn't a total idiot.
Nice to know that we are dealing with an openminded person without prejudice:
[23:24] <scamp> like... imagine a party place with MACs... everyone will laugh at you...
[23:25] <scamp> gammawave: yeah, my true view regarding macs is:
[23:25] <scamp> I've never met a SINGLE mac-user in my life that wasn't a total idiot.
gammawave: Well, he's right about the mouse ;-)
elmindreda: My statement about namevoting is a general statement about the "combined democompo" discussion, and was not directed towards you or any other Mac scener in particular.
Once again, I have no problem with the Mac or the Mac scene. I'm not a closeminded PC scener if you might think so, I fell in love with demos on the Atari ST, saw many of the early Amiga demos and finally became active on PC. I use emulators to watch non-pc demos and I also enjoy the non-pc compos at the parties I go to. I work in the embedded software industry and have worked with the 68K, the ColdFire, the DSP56xxx and other non-Intel cpu's. To summarize it, I'm probably as multiplatform as you can get :-)
The reason why I got involved in this discussion because I'm looking at it from an organizer point of view. I care about the quality of the compos (hence my statement about namevoting) and about the way people deal with party organisers, not about the fact that you're using a Mac. It could just as well have been any other platform and I would have said the same things.
Anyhow, to end my involvement in this discussion, I would like to see some of your Mac demos now so that I can see what we're talking about and what you're up to. Can I download some of 'm in divx format somewhere? :-)
elmindreda: My statement about namevoting is a general statement about the "combined democompo" discussion, and was not directed towards you or any other Mac scener in particular.
Once again, I have no problem with the Mac or the Mac scene. I'm not a closeminded PC scener if you might think so, I fell in love with demos on the Atari ST, saw many of the early Amiga demos and finally became active on PC. I use emulators to watch non-pc demos and I also enjoy the non-pc compos at the parties I go to. I work in the embedded software industry and have worked with the 68K, the ColdFire, the DSP56xxx and other non-Intel cpu's. To summarize it, I'm probably as multiplatform as you can get :-)
The reason why I got involved in this discussion because I'm looking at it from an organizer point of view. I care about the quality of the compos (hence my statement about namevoting) and about the way people deal with party organisers, not about the fact that you're using a Mac. It could just as well have been any other platform and I would have said the same things.
Anyhow, to end my involvement in this discussion, I would like to see some of your Mac demos now so that I can see what we're talking about and what you're up to. Can I download some of 'm in divx format somewhere? :-)
> I'm pretty sure that if Mac's are allowed in the compo that 99% of al regulars on mac.scene.org
> will vote for the mac demos, even if they're utter crap. Amiga sceners would vote mostly for Amiga
> demos, X-Box sceners mostly for ... well, you get the point. So if you have a combined democompo at
> your party I think that the first thing you should do is drop the public voting and replace it by 100% jury voting...
Hm. At TG 2003 two Amiga demos placed 2nd and 3rd. I'm *pretty sure* there wasn't an overload of Amiga-sceners in the public that night. :)
> will vote for the mac demos, even if they're utter crap. Amiga sceners would vote mostly for Amiga
> demos, X-Box sceners mostly for ... well, you get the point. So if you have a combined democompo at
> your party I think that the first thing you should do is drop the public voting and replace it by 100% jury voting...
Hm. At TG 2003 two Amiga demos placed 2nd and 3rd. I'm *pretty sure* there wasn't an overload of Amiga-sceners in the public that night. :)
(...yeah, pasting irc logs from a fun-rant-discussion without context and smileys removed into this thread that was INTENDED to be a real discussion sure makes sense, yeah)
About the namevoting we invented(??) a new votingsystem for last underscore, wich prety much eliminated the strength of namevoting.
The idea is simple:
Instead of rank the entries where each rank is worth X points, you simply let them rate the prods, meaning giving each prod from 0..10, where you have to spread something like minimum 20 points.
It works very well since when you namevote you usually namevote one entry in a compo, but you dont namevote it because "really want it to win" but usually because you just like the group. Having done this you can still be honest in your judgement in the other productions.
Then again, I obviously shouldnt know this as Iam no respected partyorganizer as you germans.
The idea is simple:
Instead of rank the entries where each rank is worth X points, you simply let them rate the prods, meaning giving each prod from 0..10, where you have to spread something like minimum 20 points.
It works very well since when you namevote you usually namevote one entry in a compo, but you dont namevote it because "really want it to win" but usually because you just like the group. Having done this you can still be honest in your judgement in the other productions.
Then again, I obviously shouldnt know this as Iam no respected partyorganizer as you germans.
Arneweisse: I agree that party organizers should respect people for bringing entries to their party, but respect should come from both sides.
If I learned one thing from organizing than that is that no matter what you do, some people will always keep bitching about it. I even received a death treath once because someone didn't like our rules. So please understand why I might sound not so tolerant when it comes to people *demanding* stuff from organizers.
If I learned one thing from organizing than that is that no matter what you do, some people will always keep bitching about it. I even received a death treath once because someone didn't like our rules. So please understand why I might sound not so tolerant when it comes to people *demanding* stuff from organizers.
stefan: btw, sparcus is from the netherlands, so you can't blame the evil nazi germans for his opinion :)
gammawave: don't forget the most important part!
232937 <scamp> oddke: nothing I'm currently saying has anything to do with breakpoint
232940 <scamp> I'm just flaming.
232957 <scamp> after getting flamed for 3 days now while I invested my time trying to speak to clueless idiots.
233000 <scamp> my turn.
232937 <scamp> oddke: nothing I'm currently saying has anything to do with breakpoint
232940 <scamp> I'm just flaming.
232957 <scamp> after getting flamed for 3 days now while I invested my time trying to speak to clueless idiots.
233000 <scamp> my turn.
Gloom: how many entries were there on TG that year? Could it be that the answer is: 3 entries? ;-)
scamp: one of my ancestors was from germany ;-)
MadenMann, thanks. The part about us being clueless idiots.. (yesterday I was still very reasonable and polite) is really flattering for scamp too !
Gammawave: I see, yesterday you _were_ polite, but I can't see this today.
Btw: It is time to close this thread because it is no discussion any more, its just a flamewar. Demoscene is s.th. about frindship and respect, not about flaming.
Btw: It is time to close this thread because it is no discussion any more, its just a flamewar. Demoscene is s.th. about frindship and respect, not about flaming.
sparcus, acctually, we have never demanded anything. and this thread was afaik only put up to prove that scamp didnt have any backup from the socalled "scene" as he puts it.
From the beginning i have been stating that i love the bp party anyways and will hopefully go there and party, but scamp has always skipped those parts and thought we have been only into flaming breakpoint and scamp personally, but the only one really flaming scamp has been scamp himself, he has made himself look as a fool once again here in the BBS threads, and not even because own amuzement, as the rest of us tend to do, but by his own stupidity and arrogance.
And most likely all regular demoparty visitors know well enough that they are in no position to demand anything, and should be happy that there are demoparties to visit. But the fact is, people like guys like Abyss/Assembly who puts his soul into respond to even the most lame questions all the times, just because he wants everybody to enjoy his party.
And people like Snuskis and the other 100% honest arrogant organizers at Remedy, what people dont like is being fooled into a discussion from unknowingtrolls like scamp at a serious discussionboard (obviously not counting pouet BBSes to one of them).
An example of a mac scener wanting to release his kickass demo in a compo with more than 2 releases might be:
<Abyss> Sure! Will do everything in my power to arrange so we can support this, even if i have to cancel my honeymoon and get no sleep for 3 months!
<Remedy crew> Go to hell, We dont give a fuck, we are busy arranging wettshirt compos and just dont give a fuck about such lame shit as realtime graphics, unless its pr0n.
I wouldnt mind any of those replies, but when hypocrits starts to just mess around and say they will really discuss this and then only spending time to nag about misinterpretations in the english language and spending the "discussiont"time to personal flamebaits, well, doesnt make we want to work my ass off for months producing a good production to release at their compos.
ps. this is no flame on ryg who has been extremly helpful (i have to write this everywhere otherwise scamp will jump on me and say its him iam mad on... read this scamp: you suck, why am I going into flamemode? Well, the discussion was really over before it started).
From the beginning i have been stating that i love the bp party anyways and will hopefully go there and party, but scamp has always skipped those parts and thought we have been only into flaming breakpoint and scamp personally, but the only one really flaming scamp has been scamp himself, he has made himself look as a fool once again here in the BBS threads, and not even because own amuzement, as the rest of us tend to do, but by his own stupidity and arrogance.
And most likely all regular demoparty visitors know well enough that they are in no position to demand anything, and should be happy that there are demoparties to visit. But the fact is, people like guys like Abyss/Assembly who puts his soul into respond to even the most lame questions all the times, just because he wants everybody to enjoy his party.
And people like Snuskis and the other 100% honest arrogant organizers at Remedy, what people dont like is being fooled into a discussion from unknowingtrolls like scamp at a serious discussionboard (obviously not counting pouet BBSes to one of them).
An example of a mac scener wanting to release his kickass demo in a compo with more than 2 releases might be:
<Abyss> Sure! Will do everything in my power to arrange so we can support this, even if i have to cancel my honeymoon and get no sleep for 3 months!
<Remedy crew> Go to hell, We dont give a fuck, we are busy arranging wettshirt compos and just dont give a fuck about such lame shit as realtime graphics, unless its pr0n.
I wouldnt mind any of those replies, but when hypocrits starts to just mess around and say they will really discuss this and then only spending time to nag about misinterpretations in the english language and spending the "discussiont"time to personal flamebaits, well, doesnt make we want to work my ass off for months producing a good production to release at their compos.
ps. this is no flame on ryg who has been extremly helpful (i have to write this everywhere otherwise scamp will jump on me and say its him iam mad on... read this scamp: you suck, why am I going into flamemode? Well, the discussion was really over before it started).
sparcus: I appreciate your openness, and I'm glad you didn't mean to put it that way. Personally I don't think "platform-voting", to coin a phrase, would be that big a problem. I might be wrong, however, as I'm always very careful and serious about my voting, but I know that there is a lot of name-voting going on already.
I'd love showing you our latest productions. I won't post them here, though, as this thread is rather inflamed by now. You are very welcome to come to our channel, #macscene on IRCNet, or contact me via any of the canonical ways (e-mail is the fastest).
http://hem.passagen.se/elmindreda/faq.html#contact
I'd love showing you our latest productions. I won't post them here, though, as this thread is rather inflamed by now. You are very welcome to come to our channel, #macscene on IRCNet, or contact me via any of the canonical ways (e-mail is the fastest).
http://hem.passagen.se/elmindreda/faq.html#contact
sparcus: Again, no one has demanded anything.
sparcus: actually there was 19 entries, three of them amiga entries. if you do not believe that quality prevails, take a look at "fake electronic lightshow" by ephidrena and shut up already. :)
arneweisse: I still don't understand why you call Scamp stupid and arrogant, I think he's been very reasonable and that he gave good arguments about why there wouldn't be a combined compo this year. But I'll reread all that's been said tomorrow when the dust has falllen down (hopefully ;-) to see if I missed something which might have sparkled the flame. :-)
elmindreda: deal, I'll visit #macscene tomorrow :-)
elmindreda: deal, I'll visit #macscene tomorrow :-)
uh, this thread is quite... i don't find the word :)
some minor reactions:
(Scali on the audience)
I don't think this should matter. Firstly it's not the audience competing
with the demos, but the creators, so I think you should look at what the
creators want, not at what the audience wants.
wtf?! the audience is the _only_ thing which matters! (ok, besides coding skills :)
if you think the audience does not matter, go and compete in a closed room; you don't even need speakers or monitor, since the audience does not matter...
(sorry for being extreme - but this is totally absurd)
in fact, for me the most important (and almost only) argument against holding a combined mac-pc compo is that pc users can't watch the mac demos (those without a pc port :) at home.
(elmindreda)
We also port our demos to the PC, to enable a larger audience.
what's the point of the mac-scene then? :))
(ok i'm joking... or at least half-joking)
and yes, i think namevoting (or platformvoting?:) is a real problem of combined compos in general; although probably a not so serious one in the case of pc-mac.
(scamp on irc)
I've never met a SINGLE mac-user in my life that wasn't a total idiot.
i know at least one very (really!) clever mac user personally
:)
some minor reactions:
(Scali on the audience)
I don't think this should matter. Firstly it's not the audience competing
with the demos, but the creators, so I think you should look at what the
creators want, not at what the audience wants.
wtf?! the audience is the _only_ thing which matters! (ok, besides coding skills :)
if you think the audience does not matter, go and compete in a closed room; you don't even need speakers or monitor, since the audience does not matter...
(sorry for being extreme - but this is totally absurd)
in fact, for me the most important (and almost only) argument against holding a combined mac-pc compo is that pc users can't watch the mac demos (those without a pc port :) at home.
(elmindreda)
We also port our demos to the PC, to enable a larger audience.
what's the point of the mac-scene then? :))
(ok i'm joking... or at least half-joking)
and yes, i think namevoting (or platformvoting?:) is a real problem of combined compos in general; although probably a not so serious one in the case of pc-mac.
(scamp on irc)
I've never met a SINGLE mac-user in my life that wasn't a total idiot.
i know at least one very (really!) clever mac user personally
:)
Quote:
wtf?! the audience is the _only_ thing which matters! (ok, besides coding skills :)
During the compo, the audience at the partyplace matters yes, but they can all watch the Mac demos, so that's no excuse. We meant the audience at home. You took the thing out-of-context.
the audience matters everywhere. most people makes demos since they want other people watch it.
btw the next sentence in my post takes the thing 'in-to-context', i think.
btw the next sentence in my post takes the thing 'in-to-context', i think.
make. blah my english