PC-Demos - What for??
category: general [glöplog]
maybe because doing realtime code for a demo will always be more elite than just doing a silly video with a random already-made program. it's more advanced and technical. getting the visual experience with the burden of the code will always be more valuable.
lol
Props for your answer ShanetheBee :)
nicely said and very true. I think I shall just copy'n'paste this over (of course with proper quoting and credits, haha). If that doesn't shut people up, nothing will :P
nicely said and very true. I think I shall just copy'n'paste this over (of course with proper quoting and credits, haha). If that doesn't shut people up, nothing will :P
What for??
Because you can have a Full-HD video in only 64Mb!
demos are nothing -
demos are everything
demos are everything
I personally think creating PC demos is a lot about nostalgia and tradition. There are a choice few groups exploring new techniques and pushing boundraries, but most PC demos of today are all about design and could equally well be made as videos.
The scene falls back on its roots; people code demos because they can and always have, and I guess you have to have a background with the scene of yore to understand the charm. Had there been no scene until now, I doubt it would've emerged. The only reason for the demo scene branching off from the warez scene was that you could, on the C64, make the machine do stuff that by design was supposed to be impossible, and by that be viewed as something like a god among mortals.
Don't show your non-scene coder friends regular demos, show them 64k or 4k ones instead - guaranteed to make a much larger impact. "How do they do that?" - That's what the scene has always been about.
The scene falls back on its roots; people code demos because they can and always have, and I guess you have to have a background with the scene of yore to understand the charm. Had there been no scene until now, I doubt it would've emerged. The only reason for the demo scene branching off from the warez scene was that you could, on the C64, make the machine do stuff that by design was supposed to be impossible, and by that be viewed as something like a god among mortals.
Don't show your non-scene coder friends regular demos, show them 64k or 4k ones instead - guaranteed to make a much larger impact. "How do they do that?" - That's what the scene has always been about.
BECAUSE! WE! CAN!
Also, because that's the only sensible way to do it! (There is no way to do this kind of output in a video)
Damn Shane, that was an answer.
I'll exploit this perspective next time I want to explain demos to the non-believers.
I'll exploit this perspective next time I want to explain demos to the non-believers.
i agree with willbe, shane your answer is brillant
radiant-x : "I personally think creating PC demos is a lot about nostalgia and tradition."
No, it's definitely not.
Demomaking, like Sci-Fi, is one of the highest form of entertainment in a developped, well-educated society. Because it requires dedication, it needs skills, it lives on excellence. Living in a decadent world that has forgotten words like "improvment" or "mastering" doesn't mean that demomakers should obey, bow to the rule, and get back in line.
Nostalgia ? Tradition ? Oh yeah, actually, there were some very ancient times, about fifteen years ago, when kids dreamt of doing other things than "IM-ing all day long", "playing counter-strike for hours", "designing myspace pages", "dating on SecondLife" or "making AMVs" ! But those kids have grown up and have seen an entire generation of zombies taking over the Information Age. So should we be nostalgic ? Should we honor tradition ? Yes, we ought to. But still, demomaking nowadays is all about 3D acceleration, not about oldschooling. It means that it has evolved and that it went beyond original expectations.
If you still don't get it, then maybe you should go back to Second Life.
No, it's definitely not.
Demomaking, like Sci-Fi, is one of the highest form of entertainment in a developped, well-educated society. Because it requires dedication, it needs skills, it lives on excellence. Living in a decadent world that has forgotten words like "improvment" or "mastering" doesn't mean that demomakers should obey, bow to the rule, and get back in line.
Nostalgia ? Tradition ? Oh yeah, actually, there were some very ancient times, about fifteen years ago, when kids dreamt of doing other things than "IM-ing all day long", "playing counter-strike for hours", "designing myspace pages", "dating on SecondLife" or "making AMVs" ! But those kids have grown up and have seen an entire generation of zombies taking over the Information Age. So should we be nostalgic ? Should we honor tradition ? Yes, we ought to. But still, demomaking nowadays is all about 3D acceleration, not about oldschooling. It means that it has evolved and that it went beyond original expectations.
If you still don't get it, then maybe you should go back to Second Life.
You people sure are bitter.
First of all for like minded people! (Not so easy to find them) For the sceners very own way of having fun by stimulating their brains. :D Perhaps a reason why non sceners mostly don't understand it the clue.
And yes, shanes answer it excellent.
And yes, shanes answer it excellent.
It's all of these. It's how everyone understands it..
For example someone here doesn't find any reason if it's not 8bit or >4k but I do. In the past I was a bit fanatic about software demos and oldschool stuff and dished the 3d acceleration and people saying they don't care about optimizing. And we had stupid fights in our greek mailinglist I participated too.
After years I have figured out this hinders our creativity. Not only me who'd say in the past "Hey! It's lame to do things on 3d accel" but even them who'd say to me the opposite "Why doing it in software? Why reinventing the wheel?"
In fact, after getting involved in 8bits, assembly, basic, C, acceleration or software rendering, handhelds, etc. I have figured out that the most fun I had in what I like to call middle-school (something between true 8bit oldschool and accelerated newschool). The demos I did in the gamepark handhelds was exactly that era suiting me. Not something really struggling that needs real dedication like 8bit assembly, not something like acceleration I need to be more artistic (because flying objects aren't impressive when the card does it), but something in the middle for me. I wrote code in C which is fine for me, had still my challenges (like coding fixed point 3D for something similar to a 486) and I enjoy the process more than anything else I had done.
So, the most fun I had was in the middleschool domain, not so low hardware, not so high hardware, software rendering. But that's only the domain where my creativity flows so well. It's different for anyone else. Maybe others are annoyed by anything less than acceleration or don't find the challenge in anything more than 8bits. So, what's the meaning to define if it's the size, nostalgia or high form of entertainment? (Though all these comments are valid and interesting to me)
Oh, but I went out of subject which is people who totally not understand it (e.g. still not get any of the things explained above).
I just remember when I saw some demos very back in the past to some students. Someone couldn't understand why someone would spend time on this without getting paid. Yet there was someone else who tried to explain him. He said to him what Shane said here. That guy really got it and the other still couldn't! So, we had two people who are both irrelevant with computers, bouth could not understand the technical detail, yet one of them still got the creative idea of it and the other didn't. Sometimes it's about the people and how they see purpose in life. One immediately saw creativity, the other asked if there was profit or a good reason.
For example someone here doesn't find any reason if it's not 8bit or >4k but I do. In the past I was a bit fanatic about software demos and oldschool stuff and dished the 3d acceleration and people saying they don't care about optimizing. And we had stupid fights in our greek mailinglist I participated too.
After years I have figured out this hinders our creativity. Not only me who'd say in the past "Hey! It's lame to do things on 3d accel" but even them who'd say to me the opposite "Why doing it in software? Why reinventing the wheel?"
In fact, after getting involved in 8bits, assembly, basic, C, acceleration or software rendering, handhelds, etc. I have figured out that the most fun I had in what I like to call middle-school (something between true 8bit oldschool and accelerated newschool). The demos I did in the gamepark handhelds was exactly that era suiting me. Not something really struggling that needs real dedication like 8bit assembly, not something like acceleration I need to be more artistic (because flying objects aren't impressive when the card does it), but something in the middle for me. I wrote code in C which is fine for me, had still my challenges (like coding fixed point 3D for something similar to a 486) and I enjoy the process more than anything else I had done.
So, the most fun I had was in the middleschool domain, not so low hardware, not so high hardware, software rendering. But that's only the domain where my creativity flows so well. It's different for anyone else. Maybe others are annoyed by anything less than acceleration or don't find the challenge in anything more than 8bits. So, what's the meaning to define if it's the size, nostalgia or high form of entertainment? (Though all these comments are valid and interesting to me)
Oh, but I went out of subject which is people who totally not understand it (e.g. still not get any of the things explained above).
I just remember when I saw some demos very back in the past to some students. Someone couldn't understand why someone would spend time on this without getting paid. Yet there was someone else who tried to explain him. He said to him what Shane said here. That guy really got it and the other still couldn't! So, we had two people who are both irrelevant with computers, bouth could not understand the technical detail, yet one of them still got the creative idea of it and the other didn't. Sometimes it's about the people and how they see purpose in life. One immediately saw creativity, the other asked if there was profit or a good reason.
Ok, I write too much here.
Someone else raised the idea and he was an informatics student. He said he had already seen some of the best demos out there, they were truly impressive, he really liked them, but what's the point? Why not spent those skills in something more useful, like creating really good applications, utilities, even a game engine?
What I could only answer is that this is the great thing of the demoscene.
We are having fun creating demos that have no other external use than show of themselves. Art doesn't need to have a strict defined purpose. We create demos for the demos themselves and showing our abilities. The purpose is the creation. They will never be "useful" software.. :P
Someone else raised the idea and he was an informatics student. He said he had already seen some of the best demos out there, they were truly impressive, he really liked them, but what's the point? Why not spent those skills in something more useful, like creating really good applications, utilities, even a game engine?
What I could only answer is that this is the great thing of the demoscene.
We are having fun creating demos that have no other external use than show of themselves. Art doesn't need to have a strict defined purpose. We create demos for the demos themselves and showing our abilities. The purpose is the creation. They will never be "useful" software.. :P
which also makes it a gigantic waste of time :D
Okkie : Right ! Waste of time and talent. How european... :)
TomS4wy3r: First you resent using the term nostalgia, and then you go on about how much better things at general were some 15 years ago and how we should keep being like we were back then. I think I'll just rest my case.
Quote:
Nostalgia ? Tradition ? Oh yeah, actually, there were some very ancient times, about fifteen years ago, when kids dreamt of doing other things than "IM-ing all day long", "playing counter-strike for hours", "designing myspace pages", "dating on SecondLife" or "making AMVs" ! But those kids have grown up and have seen an entire generation of zombies taking over the Information Age.
You do realize that if MySpace and Second Life were around 2 decades ago, there wouldn't have been a demoscene right?
These discussions are as useful as eating soup with a fork. Stuff changes, some people don't get it, there might actually not be a "use", yada yada yada.
Fuck it, let's go to Evoke and get drunk! \o/
Thanks guys. I know I play devil's advocate and Pouet troll most times, but I have nothing but respect for the dedicated sceners who create demo masterpieces!
Okkie: Damn Straight.
And I never thought I'd say this. But.
Shane: Damn Straight.
And I never thought I'd say this. But.
Shane: Damn Straight.
For Xbox'es it seems.
Archmage: Subtle (: And brilliant (:
i'll answer the original question: FOR THE WIN!
