Are leechers the root of all evil?
category: general [glöplog]
I've been on Pouet.net for a few weeks now, doing my bit to add helpful comments for prospective downloaders. But it's time to confess: I'm a leecher, and it's been that way since 1989. (A500)
In the 'old' days I was considered a "lamer," and judging from comments on pouet.net, sceners still don't think too highly of people like myself. Over and over again I see people write, "If you haven't made anything better, you have no right to criticize."
Hmm... If you've never been a police officer, you have no right to criticize the police. If you've never been a politician, you have no right to criticize the government. If you've never been a teacher, you have no right to criticize your education.
Whatever.
I *enjoy* spending a portion of my free time watching demos. They're pretty interesting. But let's face it, some are better than others, and it doesn't take 10 years demo-coding experience to point this out.
So I guess my question is this: Why does the demo scene seem so appalled at the thought of outsiders enjoying, and even criticizing, productions?
In the 'old' days I was considered a "lamer," and judging from comments on pouet.net, sceners still don't think too highly of people like myself. Over and over again I see people write, "If you haven't made anything better, you have no right to criticize."
Hmm... If you've never been a police officer, you have no right to criticize the police. If you've never been a politician, you have no right to criticize the government. If you've never been a teacher, you have no right to criticize your education.
Whatever.
I *enjoy* spending a portion of my free time watching demos. They're pretty interesting. But let's face it, some are better than others, and it doesn't take 10 years demo-coding experience to point this out.
So I guess my question is this: Why does the demo scene seem so appalled at the thought of outsiders enjoying, and even criticizing, productions?
"If you've never been a police officer, you have no right to criticize the police."
True. However, if you've seen many-many police officers, talked to many of them, seen them work in different situations, you'll get a basic knowledge about what does a police officer has to do.
Same goes for demos. If you've seen Second Reality, or Crystal Dream 2 running on a 486, if you've seen running fr-08 while knowing the size, seeing Xaos on the bigscreen LOUD, seeing Shad 1 in a dark room...
Or simply if you have common sense... You CAN judge a demo wisely, if you want to...
I mean my friends we're "a bit" amazed, when I showed them Second Reality after playing LHX.
"WOW, this stuff looks like... real!"
"Man, this is way faster!"
After a while, people can _feel_, which demo is good and which demo could be better.
Simply do what you feel. It will be right. (Usually :)
True. However, if you've seen many-many police officers, talked to many of them, seen them work in different situations, you'll get a basic knowledge about what does a police officer has to do.
Same goes for demos. If you've seen Second Reality, or Crystal Dream 2 running on a 486, if you've seen running fr-08 while knowing the size, seeing Xaos on the bigscreen LOUD, seeing Shad 1 in a dark room...
Or simply if you have common sense... You CAN judge a demo wisely, if you want to...
I mean my friends we're "a bit" amazed, when I showed them Second Reality after playing LHX.
"WOW, this stuff looks like... real!"
"Man, this is way faster!"
After a while, people can _feel_, which demo is good and which demo could be better.
Simply do what you feel. It will be right. (Usually :)
Of course ppl MUST be able to express an opinion!
I just ask to remember that if you aren't a demoscener (read you haven't done anything) you can write your critics only about the artistic side of the scene.
U can't criticize a technical implementation of an effect if u never coded anything, the same for gfx or soundtracks..
Please someone kill those guys still commenting : "Oh! It suxx, with a 3ds max animation I can do way better animations!"
I just ask to remember that if you aren't a demoscener (read you haven't done anything) you can write your critics only about the artistic side of the scene.
U can't criticize a technical implementation of an effect if u never coded anything, the same for gfx or soundtracks..
Please someone kill those guys still commenting : "Oh! It suxx, with a 3ds max animation I can do way better animations!"
Dude, you were on the Amiga, you're more than allowed to comment.
In those days I was considered 'Lame' by folks who got busted and aren't with us no mo. Forget the Lame bit, forget the leet bit, be yerself, comment, and heck try your hand at pixeling or coding or tracking if you want. But help improve the community by all means.
Besides, how can productions become legends if no one leeches them?
In those days I was considered 'Lame' by folks who got busted and aren't with us no mo. Forget the Lame bit, forget the leet bit, be yerself, comment, and heck try your hand at pixeling or coding or tracking if you want. But help improve the community by all means.
Besides, how can productions become legends if no one leeches them?
No. Just comment what you wish! Don't give a fuck =)
Well, it's good to read these comments. Honestly.
Before being on pouet.net I would sometimes email groups small messages of appreciation in regards to good demos they had made. 1/3rd received no reply, and 1/3rd received friendly replies. But the remainder turned ugly when I made the 'mistake' of mentioning I was not part of any demo group. Surprisingly rude, in fact.
And now I sometimes read similar (but not as nasty) stuff on this site. It *does* make me feel a tad unwelcome. Oh well, I guess I'll learn to ignore these types of statements.
But the bottom line is I'm here because I like demos...
And maybe one of these summers I'll fly to Europe to check out a compo.
Sir GarbagetrucK: I do compose music, and started because of the scene! (Octamed on my A4000.) Now I compose for professional performers, play in a band, and have been recommended as a 'mentor' for a young musician. (I have offered my stuff to some demo groups, but they weren't really interested in what I write. Oh well...)
Before being on pouet.net I would sometimes email groups small messages of appreciation in regards to good demos they had made. 1/3rd received no reply, and 1/3rd received friendly replies. But the remainder turned ugly when I made the 'mistake' of mentioning I was not part of any demo group. Surprisingly rude, in fact.
And now I sometimes read similar (but not as nasty) stuff on this site. It *does* make me feel a tad unwelcome. Oh well, I guess I'll learn to ignore these types of statements.
But the bottom line is I'm here because I like demos...
And maybe one of these summers I'll fly to Europe to check out a compo.
Sir GarbagetrucK: I do compose music, and started because of the scene! (Octamed on my A4000.) Now I compose for professional performers, play in a band, and have been recommended as a 'mentor' for a young musician. (I have offered my stuff to some demo groups, but they weren't really interested in what I write. Oh well...)
hehe thats something that will never change hehe
little wizkids, that think the world turn around then because they can code a sprite rutine, and then feel raised above others that cant. even though everybody can tell those sprites looks like crap.
Comment all you like, but like i left the scene to form a label (and ended up being cofounder of 2;) ...i take critic from a fellow musician more seriously than from "JD" in a club. but JD may have some valid points so im never closed off...neither should the scene be, if i was a painter i would know my colorscheme, as good as any programmer demodesigner out there...period!
little wizkids, that think the world turn around then because they can code a sprite rutine, and then feel raised above others that cant. even though everybody can tell those sprites looks like crap.
Comment all you like, but like i left the scene to form a label (and ended up being cofounder of 2;) ...i take critic from a fellow musician more seriously than from "JD" in a club. but JD may have some valid points so im never closed off...neither should the scene be, if i was a painter i would know my colorscheme, as good as any programmer demodesigner out there...period!
When I started becoming interested in the scene (last year about), my general programming knowledge was quite low (hmmm... Basic anyone?) as a matter of fact (even thought in my school people viewed me as a computer GOD, because of my hardware knowledge. When I come to think about it, this IS quite pathetic). However, ever since, i've been learning like crazy: programming(C/C++), and composing(FastTracker). I actually now consider myself at quite a respectable level. However I still havent really made any prods. It is only recently that I formed a group with a few friends(in France and in the U.S.), and we have not had much time to make anything, since school is so time consuming, and that I do try to be a good student :) However,*ahem*, I will not reveal myself as being a part of this "group" until I see what type of feedback we receive. Anyways, the thing is, when I actually started gaining interest in the scene, I moved out of Europe to the U.S. That truly sucks, considering I'd now do almost anything to go to a compo(Which our "European" members will fortunately be able to do)
When I REALLY started learning programming, I was quite discouraged, but I have succesfully crawled my way out, and am now proud of myself. Just an encouragement to all newcomers(as myself).
However, just out of pure curiosity, how old are you guys??? (I'd just like to get a general idea, since I don't really now what age group corresponds to sceners. Oh, and just another thing: I'm 15 (seriously))
I think that's enough blabbering for my part. Just another thing to add: To me this website represents everything. I can now "interact" with all these people whom I consider my heros: Sceners.
Anyways, thom, keep commenting. Personally, I would like to see what type of reactions *our* futur prods will give.
Oh, and by the way, I dont think this has much to do with the original message, but I felt like I had to write this stuff ^somewhere^.
When I REALLY started learning programming, I was quite discouraged, but I have succesfully crawled my way out, and am now proud of myself. Just an encouragement to all newcomers(as myself).
However, just out of pure curiosity, how old are you guys??? (I'd just like to get a general idea, since I don't really now what age group corresponds to sceners. Oh, and just another thing: I'm 15 (seriously))
I think that's enough blabbering for my part. Just another thing to add: To me this website represents everything. I can now "interact" with all these people whom I consider my heros: Sceners.
Anyways, thom, keep commenting. Personally, I would like to see what type of reactions *our* futur prods will give.
Oh, and by the way, I dont think this has much to do with the original message, but I felt like I had to write this stuff ^somewhere^.
Wow!!! I actually wrote all that??
What gives you the privilege to comment or not? Is there a rule? You have to be in a demogroup? And released something? In the past three years? At least 4kbytes long? That made at least 1000 hits on your web page?
No. Everyone is free to state his opinion. This is not a cult or a closed society. People make demos for fun. For everybody's fun. That's why the demoscene rocks! :-)
No. Everyone is free to state his opinion. This is not a cult or a closed society. People make demos for fun. For everybody's fun. That's why the demoscene rocks! :-)
I'm 33, been around since '86-'87, and I've seen more Elitist 'sceners' quit because 'no one liked their productions enough' than I've seen truly awesome productions from elitists.
That isn't to say there aren't elitists who aren't talented fscks who you just wish could get a clue. But they don't.
People, they is funny.
That isn't to say there aren't elitists who aren't talented fscks who you just wish could get a clue. But they don't.
People, they is funny.
Oh, Thom - where can I get your productions to listen to? I know some folks looking for musicians to help them with productions - tends to be a problem in the states - either you're a really awesome musician (like Basehead) and you get work or you can't fina any musicians anywhere around you and you spend your life looking for them (like 90% of the US scene (: )
im 24 the labels im involved with can be found at www.brainshakaz.dk (drum'n'bass) and www.sunsurfer.dk (production, and official Ministry of Sound scouts)
most of us, are old sceners, but we will not tell you our old handles hehe...but it was never elite, i never really liked the elite, for the reasons sir garbagetruck named. we just had a good time, and realeased a few things, but basically just went to party's and had fun. and well, we're back =)
most of us, are old sceners, but we will not tell you our old handles hehe...but it was never elite, i never really liked the elite, for the reasons sir garbagetruck named. we just had a good time, and realeased a few things, but basically just went to party's and had fun. and well, we're back =)
he i m 26 ! damn that s pretty old !
damn you guys were old even back then!
All cops are bastards!
skrebbel, i thought exactly the same until i magically reached your reply =)
Course the thing I was thinking was "wow, this was written in 2001, I hadn't even been to Breakpoint yet!"
Violator: You listening to Short Music for Short People?
Violator: You listening to Short Music for Short People?
A.C.A.B.!
Quote:
Yes, I think getting involved with the demo scene is a good motivation to improve one's programming skills. That's the use of the scene.When I started becoming interested in the scene (last year about), my general programming knowledge was quite low (hmmm... Basic anyone?) as a matter of fact (even thought in my school people viewed me as a computer GOD, because of my hardware knowledge. When I come to think about it, this IS quite pathetic). However, ever since, i've been learning like crazy: programming(C/C++), and composing(FastTracker). I actually now consider myself at quite a respectable level.
The scene is a good place to find friends motivated about the same interests: technology uses and performance, maths, physics, video-game, music, graphics, arts and generally creativity.
That's why it's great. Moreover when you have freedom to express yourself even if sometimes when you're quite unknown, sceners tend to ignore you or criticize your "Alien" liked comments and articles this turn to be enjoyable. Because we are all guys and love fighting and wars to some extend: all sports are war, because competition is about winning by the way.
With time we turn agressivity into accurate listening and analisys, which in return gives new ideas and improve creativity and the loop is done.
Leeachers, leech, consume, find interesting things, make comments and those comments are enjoyed because they bring new perspective, new ideas and bring in a way fresh blood to the scene. This is the root of art and life: productive communication.
That's why it's great. Moreover when you have freedom to express yourself even if sometimes when you're quite unknown, sceners tend to ignore you or criticize your "Alien" liked comments and articles this turn to be enjoyable. Because we are all guys and love fighting and wars to some extend: all sports are war, because competition is about winning by the way.
With time we turn agressivity into accurate listening and analisys, which in return gives new ideas and improve creativity and the loop is done.
Leeachers, leech, consume, find interesting things, make comments and those comments are enjoyed because they bring new perspective, new ideas and bring in a way fresh blood to the scene. This is the root of art and life: productive communication.
nice comment ep...
to answer nezbie, i'm 18 - but i'm just starting with the scene...
to the original comment, agree that people who haven't released things can learn by watching and make thoughtful posts from theie perspective, but there are enough people out there who make thoughtless comments that it's generally become frowned on to even admit that you are inexperienced in matters...
to put in my own tidbit, i am very new to the "scene" and it seems like an awesome thing to become a part of. i'm trying to learn skale and/or fasttracker (through these i found out about the scene), but the going is slow. i guess it's back to reading the 'trackers handbook'
to answer nezbie, i'm 18 - but i'm just starting with the scene...
to the original comment, agree that people who haven't released things can learn by watching and make thoughtful posts from theie perspective, but there are enough people out there who make thoughtless comments that it's generally become frowned on to even admit that you are inexperienced in matters...
to put in my own tidbit, i am very new to the "scene" and it seems like an awesome thing to become a part of. i'm trying to learn skale and/or fasttracker (through these i found out about the scene), but the going is slow. i guess it's back to reading the 'trackers handbook'
Well I'm 22 and not really new to the scene. I know it since 1998 or something, although I've seen the first demos on my A500 in 1993/94.. e.g. I had State of the Art back then, I remember watching it often, but I actually didn't know that it was something called a "demo" and never heard of the scene behind it.
I haven't released anything so far. Several times I started some demoproject together with friends, but it was always the same - they lost interest and I was alone again with the project, and doing it alone demotivated me. Today, I want to do something, alone or not, but it's hard to find time for it. I have a little project there, I coded some oldskool-effects, tracked some chiptune-music... but I think it's not worth releasing something with it. It's like it is 10 year too late to do anything like that. But hey.. I have fun doing it. I'm not a 3D-artist, I can't do any fancy ten-zillion-polygon 3D-scenes... and coding just another 3D engine for something like that doesn't even tempt me.
So... I am doing some stuff, but I don't release it because no one would care anyway. I would like to do something big and cool, but I don't have time for it at the moment and it's really hard to find people near you which are interested in it.
I haven't released anything so far. Several times I started some demoproject together with friends, but it was always the same - they lost interest and I was alone again with the project, and doing it alone demotivated me. Today, I want to do something, alone or not, but it's hard to find time for it. I have a little project there, I coded some oldskool-effects, tracked some chiptune-music... but I think it's not worth releasing something with it. It's like it is 10 year too late to do anything like that. But hey.. I have fun doing it. I'm not a 3D-artist, I can't do any fancy ten-zillion-polygon 3D-scenes... and coding just another 3D engine for something like that doesn't even tempt me.
So... I am doing some stuff, but I don't release it because no one would care anyway. I would like to do something big and cool, but I don't have time for it at the moment and it's really hard to find people near you which are interested in it.
heh i'm a lamer, i'm french,i'm young and i never released something during parties or whatever, so i'm not a scener BUT I feel free to criticize =D
