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I agree with Slux.

It's still the great debate to know if demoscene has something to do with art. Oh my god. I really think we have to admit that plainly or just die.

And what I heard in music compo was not made with any in-depth research. Just the kind of music I will play loud on my speakers like I did with LB songs (thumb up dude) during the party and never go to it afterwards. Falling in limbos.

Well, I am still playing LB's music loud today so I think it's still remains a very good one.

Music compos at BP has a problem and you can't ignore all these (good) musicians anymore -I mean real ones, not just 4/4 beatmakers- when they spread the words that there is a serious problem in the selection.

Having 75 songs to sort is not a big deal. Bigger parties do the same and even better and they succeed pretty well (Assembly, Gathering, or earlier: The Party).

With the "Rumble in the Jungle" invitation music, I expected to have a more open-minded compo with possibilities for orchestral things and "musically focused composition" (ugly term).

medron: we'll see if you keep saying that and entering another track next year after a dozen more of the same occurances.

ps : you might be right.. maybe i get pissed off if it happens again and again..

I had that idea after that bp05 thingy. The not so mainstream entry is played for a short time at the compo, than there's an announcement that it will be played in full length at some "alternative compo" after the pc demo competition. I thought it could work but after I've received answers like "gong show" or "top of the crap" I've dropped the idea.

ryg: I guess I'm the one at fault there. Entered it at the video compo, watched the compo then after the first 5-6 entries I got the point mine was not going to be shown.

Then I tried to enter it for the real wild compo after the scene.org awards, but the uploads fucked up for some unknown reason. Then went towards the infodesk but sort of got demotivated to push the issue forward after an exchange with a half-drunk orga. Went to sleep to let the deadline pass.

In the end it was displayed to interested parties in the tent, on statix' laptop. Near the friendly miashop.

medron, that is what i do appreciate, that the entries do not get spreaded by the organisers if they are not shown. for my video i decided to release it now, cause i will be doing other stuff for simulaatio, but i know that atleast abho is saving his two not shown entries to be released at simulaatio.

what comes to music compos, i think that strict style restrictions can make the compos a bit more intresting.

anyway, atleast i'm happy that i only spend a day or two to make the video. after last years fuckup i really didn't want to spend time to making something more time taking, cause it is clear that on my side it would have been just waste of time.

and oh, i really would like to know who was the person thinking that the no copy slideshow with unbelievable crappy picture quality was something worth to show while leaving some non-pop stuff out. it was utterly boring and the fact that it was only in german didn't help the experience at all. copyright issues don't justify making shit.

Ok, so here's my story:

<quote>
Music compos at BP has a problem and you can't ignore all these (good) musicians anymore -I mean real ones, not just 4/4 beatmakers- when they spread the words that there is a serious problem in the selection.
</quote>

I tried to create a very out-of-the-ordinary track that somehow combines spoken text, weird 80s music styles, realistic e-guitar-sound and funny but well-done vocals. After i finished that one (and yes, WORK and RESEARCH went into that) i still had a little time for playing around with renoise, so i did a schranz-tune (that is: hard, pounding german techno) with a "lesser" idea i still had in mind, concerning the vocal phrases (was placed 2nd in the multichannel compo). The sound might actually be very good, but on the other hand i used ~5 drumloops. Wasn't at all that creative, if not boring (at www.jco-music.de there is an mp3 version now).

I was actually very surprised that this track made it into the compo - I'm pretty sure there were better candidates.
I see a music compo at a demoparty somewhat like the demo competitions: It's about doing something new, that was not heard before, showing creative ideas and posing with effects, as well as presenting skills.

Shortly after I arrived at bp06, i was told by several organisers who listened to the other tune that they were laughing their asses off and thumbed me up big time (nobody mentioned the renoise-track though, of course).

Then somehow wayfinder told faith that my other track (the good one) didnt make it into the competition, just before the compo. Somehow he didnt dare telling me, though (thanks wayfinder, i love you too).

All argumentation i got so far, from one of the other preselectors as well, is "somehow it did not fit".

So I decided to go boozing my brains out, not understanding the scene spirit anymore (am i really so wrong??). Sorry to all those whom I annoyed shouting around "Fuckings to the scene" and "I hate you all" :)

so to hell with it, i'll just release it at evoke.

Again, to make sure you get my point: I don't have a problem with preselection in general, but taking the ordinary, boring track in and kicking the original stuff out is not the way music compos ought to be predecided.

<quote>
what comes to music compos, i think that strict style restrictions can make the compos a bit more intresting.
</quote>

There I agree with nosfe, and it's maybe the only "realistic" way of changing the music compos for the better. Takeover 2001 had a seperation of "house" and "chillout" music or something, and it worked out pretty well.

<quote>
and oh, i really would like to know who was the person thinking that the no copy slideshow with unbelievable crappy picture quality was something worth to show while leaving some non-pop stuff out. it was utterly boring and the fact that it was only in german didn't help the experience at all. copyright issues don't justify making shit.
</quote>

the speech made it good, but that does not excuse keeping your video out.

<quote>
It's still the great debate to know if demoscene has something to do with art. Oh my god. I really think we have to admit that plainly or just die.
</quote>

It's not. The big part of the scene does only see in-your-face-effects-obviousness (my predictions concerning my own releases keep underlining that).
Okay, to be fair: the big part of the scene also likes looking "behind" things, but there are just things they can't see.

Uh, that's enough. I'll just have to find my own consequences.

I think preselection is a good thing and a must at such a big event as Breakpoint. Keep in mind that the compos are going to be watched by an audience. Keeping them sitting watching/listening to crap for 3 hours will only detract from the experience. In my opinion the democompo could easily have been cut down to 20 entries (or maybe 15) this year.
Many seem to think that it somehow is their right to have their work showed on the bigscreen - why should it be?
If you are going to release stuff that you KNOW isn't a contender, why not release it at a smaller party where it is guaranteed to be shown instead? Now everyone and their grandmother wants to release something at BP. To me the big compos (BP, ASM) should be where the real cream-de-la-crop dukes it out, where the real high-quality stuff is shown.
And before people start with their "oh, but it's all in the eyes of the beholder"-yadayada that is usually the argument made for the "artsy-fartsy" crap, when I talk about high quality, I mean the stuff that the majority enjoys.
In this years compo for example, I could easily call that MFX and STS would place in the top 3. Not only because I myself liked them, but because they showed quality that I knew would be appreciated by the majority.
Preselection is simply picking out the stuff that has these qualities, and I think at most parties the organizers do a good job of it.

Not everyone agrees with you about that, we had a lot of complaints about house music in the non-house compo and vice versa (the problem seemed to be that people have different opinions about what's house music and what's not).

And splitting up compos like that also might duplicate the amount of entries you get when all musicians start competing in both compos, so when doing that there maybe should also be a rule which allows musicians to enter only one of those compos, not both.

How about uploading the preselected music a little bit earlier to the network and giving a special price "best of not juries taste" at the official pricegiving cermony.
Same for wild entries...

somehow i doubt there will be a solution this time. it's just gonna keep on sucking.

just split breakpoint down to 10 (100guys+2girls) parties

why does 100guys + 2girls remind me of bukkake...

sdw, some of us work to make productions not for the aim of winning the compo, but just because we have ideas we want to show other people. if there is a preselection it should allow works that have different esthetics to also make it through, just to make the compo more intresting.
i try to have a production at every party i visit, i dont see why i and others who are not trying to just get the most votes should refrain ourselves from doing anything for parties like asm or bp.

oh well, i do have the demoscene passivist shirt now so i could just stop doing anything else than drinking beer for real.


sparcus, i think that idea for splitting compos and only allowing to enter one of them, could be quite good. hope someone tries it.

jco, dont save your tune for evoke but come to simulaatio and release it there!

The demoscene extremist shirt would be much better for you. ;)

well, this year bp was quite extreme for me.
haven't been this sick in a loong time.

Did you ever thought of the fact that your song was not as good as the other tracks that were preselected? I did not hear your track, so I can not tell, but I think some modesty and respect to the other musicians would fit here. And expecting a good reason why your song was not played is not fair either, then they should do that for every not- preselected tune... they would have to spend way too much time, which they do not have.

I think wayfinder and the others did a good job here, they had to drop 80% of the entries so then you always have cases to make some choices which should be made by the voters. This time it's your song, another time somebody elses...

And I actually liked the music competitions because there were some really good entries.

even if JCO's track was really good, choices always have to be made. If you have 75 entries and half of them is more than decent, you still have to cut 37.5 entries (I'm not really sure how that half entry works, but just discard that).

I remember listening to Jeenio's 'Scener song' on the way home from BP2004 and I could not understand why that wasn't pre-selected that year. Sometimes choices have to be made..

Jeenio's 'Scener song' is awesome beyond belief though.

that doesn't make any sense.. you'd have to cut 60 entries to endup with 15, so if half is good, than you'd probably pick 10 from those, cause you are not gonna play crap when you have too much good music, then again, that's a matter of taste too, so you'd still discard around 40 entries that might be good.. It actually makes me wonder if there is still crap submitted to the music compos, like seriously low quality shit music that has nothing to do with taste..

*cold rant*

well what to say...preselection polarises. I hate it as well, but it's desperately needed in the - let's say - "bloated" compos (that was pointed to the number of entries) .
My conclusion after BP03 was to give up contributing music and to start digging more into coding instead. Same did d!rt!ie f.e. regarding video editing.

So if I want to contribute any further I pick my best stuff and upload it at Nectarine to stand the approval.

jco: You really really need to learn how to lose. Next to every musician thinks his own track was good enough to get preselected into the competition.

Changing the preselection team doesn't help - we ARE already selecting it from a different bunch of scene musicians each year. Whoever does the job, nobody will be happy with the result anyway.

And yeah, the best way to make sure your track gets played simply is: Put it into a demo/wild/whatever entry.

jco: you just won +5 consideration points. right on.

scamp: telling ppl they are sore losers for beeing disapointed when their good tracks dont get played in replace for cheap techno shit isnt a very smart idea. my 2 cents.

The biggest problem with all this is the egos of musicians. They always have "their" genre, everything else sucks. ON TOP of that they are all PUMPED up with egoism and self adoration. Iam not saying everyone is tho, but there arent any exception that isn't also a coder or graphician.

dodge: i've given up releasing at music compos all together (well, except for small parties where i know it'll still get played despite beeing placed low) and just release them at the netlabels. but is this really what we want for the demoscene? to see the music compos of the big parties swarmed with pop and chip stuff? i would be hoping for some diversity, i mean, chip is understandable since its part of the scene culture, but pop.. i would much rather hear some interesting tracks instead. even though there is quite some decent pop stuff getting done.. having it at all the entries for all the music compos of all the big parties is kind of an overload. my only solution is: stop wasting good tracks on big demoparties, save them for netlabel or demo or small party, where ppl might actually listen to them.

besides, reed will win anyway. :D

i thought was way to little pop in the streaming compo, mostly annoying dull music and okkie.

problem is not in to many releases but to less parties