demos with java ?!
category: general [glöplog]
due to the fact that nope has released their first java demo, i just wonder again, why there are so few demos made with java? nowadays the machines are fast enough, the gfx/sound possibilities with java are ok, and there is also enough community-support, if you start learning java-coding or if you have special questions concerning special problems. what do you think?
I once tried to start doing more serious java coding a few years ago. But at that time there where hardly any scene - like java tutorials available that dealt with topics such as 3d gfx, better sound or even per pixel manipulation.
So I downloaded some j3d sources from sun, tried to run them and had 'em all crashed. that's the point about java: if it's fast and high quality, it's no longer platform neutral. At that time I decided not to continue working at it. And if I look at new nope demo: It still needs a special re installed, so it seems that not that much changed about this point.
So I downloaded some j3d sources from sun, tried to run them and had 'em all crashed. that's the point about java: if it's fast and high quality, it's no longer platform neutral. At that time I decided not to continue working at it. And if I look at new nope demo: It still needs a special re installed, so it seems that not that much changed about this point.
java sucks. more than gaffer's arse :P
my favourite quote regarding java demos by kb:
platform independence means it won't run anywhere indepentent of the platform.
platform independence means it won't run anywhere indepentent of the platform.
I once wanted to start coding java demos but I never catched up with. Now I am hearing all these rumors about java programms not running, java beeing obselette, nobody is coding java anymore, e.t.c.. and so I am not sure if I will give it a try. But I do want, I always loved to open a website and watch a realtime demoeffect upon my browser!!!
all descent demos inklud one own JavaVM(tm). Just check out all Odd-prods. Very nice koding from me. As far as I now, I am the bestest coder in hour solarsistem. Oh, and stefan/dxm, too.
I used Java3D for some school stuff. It ran fine (hardware accellerated) on both GNU/Linux and Windows.
Haven't tried non-intel platforms.
(and for the record: I really don't like java though :)
Haven't tried non-intel platforms.
(and for the record: I really don't like java though :)
lol
komplex has done pretty cool java demos since 1998. why nobody else has moved to java is again a question i don't have an answer (besides the obvious reasons like worse performance compared to c/c++ :).
Aikarele makes Java products too :). Here is our latest (64k intro from Assembly 2002, came 9th out of 21 entries):
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7145
There have been many problems with Java (for demos):
- no support for Direct 3D or other 3D apis
- bad sound support (8000 Hz 8 bit mono u-law)
- no high resolution timer
- not possible to change screen resolution
- slow
- compatibility problems between browsers
Many of these problems have been solved:
- Java 3D supports Direct 3D and Open GL. J3D has it's own problems, but it's getting better
- Java Sound API is now part of J2SE (since J2SE 1.3), so most sound problems are gone
- There is still no high resolution timer in J2SE, but this should be fixed in J2SE 1.5 (codename "tiger"). There is a high resolution timer in J3D, so this is not a problem if J3D is used.
- Now that Full-screen exclusive mode API is part of J2SE (since J2SE 1.4), it is possible to change screen resolution.
- Java is getting faster and computers are getting faster too. Not that many demos nowadays require the fastest processor, so there are extra processor cycles to spend ;)
- The easy answer: do not make a browser (applet) demo. Do an application instead. Sun, IBM and Apple has made pretty compatible Java versions. Our demo works at least with Windows, Linux, Solaris and Mac OS (and possibly many other operating systems)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7145
There have been many problems with Java (for demos):
- no support for Direct 3D or other 3D apis
- bad sound support (8000 Hz 8 bit mono u-law)
- no high resolution timer
- not possible to change screen resolution
- slow
- compatibility problems between browsers
Many of these problems have been solved:
- Java 3D supports Direct 3D and Open GL. J3D has it's own problems, but it's getting better
- Java Sound API is now part of J2SE (since J2SE 1.3), so most sound problems are gone
- There is still no high resolution timer in J2SE, but this should be fixed in J2SE 1.5 (codename "tiger"). There is a high resolution timer in J3D, so this is not a problem if J3D is used.
- Now that Full-screen exclusive mode API is part of J2SE (since J2SE 1.4), it is possible to change screen resolution.
- Java is getting faster and computers are getting faster too. Not that many demos nowadays require the fastest processor, so there are extra processor cycles to spend ;)
- The easy answer: do not make a browser (applet) demo. Do an application instead. Sun, IBM and Apple has made pretty compatible Java versions. Our demo works at least with Windows, Linux, Solaris and Mac OS (and possibly many other operating systems)
Java took too long to have javasound, and by the time javasound appeared, and machines got fast enough, microsoft dropped support for java.
Makes it kinda useless to target the jvm now that only developers have the jdk on their machines.
Makes it kinda useless to target the jvm now that only developers have the jdk on their machines.
Well, i do not agree : they are support for 3d api, like Gl4Java. The bad point is that it requires alot of libraries..
But i made a full 3d engine using BSP-Tree and GL4Java, it is quiet fast!
Another thing : look at http://www.essi.fr/~potages/reason/3d/index.html , this is a part of my software engine : not so that slow, i think it is not too hard to make prods in java, like those nioce complex ones.
But why should we do that? I mean it is not "technicaly satisfying", and they are no competitions for it.
For support, forget microsoft, look on sun pages!
But i made a full 3d engine using BSP-Tree and GL4Java, it is quiet fast!
Another thing : look at http://www.essi.fr/~potages/reason/3d/index.html , this is a part of my software engine : not so that slow, i think it is not too hard to make prods in java, like those nioce complex ones.
But why should we do that? I mean it is not "technicaly satisfying", and they are no competitions for it.
For support, forget microsoft, look on sun pages!
MS put the JVM back in... It's in sp1 for XP, and I think it's also in sp3 for Win2k...
I have the MS JVM in both Win2k and XP on my system at least.
So Java might be making a comeback :)
I have the MS JVM in both Win2k and XP on my system at least.
So Java might be making a comeback :)
I forgot one of the problems in Java; it is still developing very fast (new versions every year). It is hard to decide which version to use: the latest will be best, but not that many users might have it. A lot of people are still living in Java 1.1.4 age, because Microsoft VM hasn't gone beyond that (and it's already 5 years old!). At least in the latest version of Java there is a update button, so you don't have to download the whole thing again every time you want a newer JRE....
kUfa; yes I ment 3D apis were not supported by Java itself; you needed native APIs, so they are not "platform independent". Well J3D isn't that platform independent either; it's only available for Windows and Solaris (!). Why does Aikarele use Java?
a) platform independent (some of us use Windows, some of us Linux and there is even one guy using Mac)
b) nice language (yes we do code with C, C++ and asm too)
c) technical challenge. It is interesting to see how we can compete with C++ products.
And yes there are competitions, for example Assembly allows Java entries in 4k, 64k and demo compos...
scali, to be exact, MS did not put JVM back in. Microsoft can not call it's crippled VM a "Java Virtual Machine", they are only allowed to call it "Microsoft Virtual Machine". And don't wait for the comeback by Microsoft. Sun and Microsoft settled in court; Microsoft is allowed to ship it's VM in new products until January 2 2004 and in existing products until January 2 2008. The settlement agreement can be found from:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/java/01-23settlement.asp
The real come back for Java (in demo scene sense) might be the mobile phones. Now that practically every phone has to support Java and about 400 million phones are sold every year, there will be more Java supported devices in couple of years than there are computers on this planet. For example, Komplex released 3 Java demos for mobiles at Assembly 2002 (in forumnokia compo). And a Java demo by Contraz & Excess came 2nd at the mobile demo compo:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7129
kUfa; yes I ment 3D apis were not supported by Java itself; you needed native APIs, so they are not "platform independent". Well J3D isn't that platform independent either; it's only available for Windows and Solaris (!). Why does Aikarele use Java?
a) platform independent (some of us use Windows, some of us Linux and there is even one guy using Mac)
b) nice language (yes we do code with C, C++ and asm too)
c) technical challenge. It is interesting to see how we can compete with C++ products.
And yes there are competitions, for example Assembly allows Java entries in 4k, 64k and demo compos...
scali, to be exact, MS did not put JVM back in. Microsoft can not call it's crippled VM a "Java Virtual Machine", they are only allowed to call it "Microsoft Virtual Machine". And don't wait for the comeback by Microsoft. Sun and Microsoft settled in court; Microsoft is allowed to ship it's VM in new products until January 2 2004 and in existing products until January 2 2008. The settlement agreement can be found from:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/java/01-23settlement.asp
The real come back for Java (in demo scene sense) might be the mobile phones. Now that practically every phone has to support Java and about 400 million phones are sold every year, there will be more Java supported devices in couple of years than there are computers on this planet. For example, Komplex released 3 Java demos for mobiles at Assembly 2002 (in forumnokia compo). And a Java demo by Contraz & Excess came 2nd at the mobile demo compo:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7129
I didn't mean to be political or anything.
I just wanted to say that even though Windows XP itself was shipped without a JVM (MS VM or whatever), sp1 will install it again.
So that's what I meant by making a comeback.
Let's face it, most people use Windows, and if they use Java, it is usually only in a browser, and usually in IE. So when MS took out Java, I suppose that the support for Java was reduced by an incredible amount.
Now that Java is back into Windows, more people can run it, and there's more reason to write Java again.
Mobile phones are nice yes... SymbianOS right?
I saw that even Doom was ported to it now...
But you can't compare a mobile phone to a PC.
PCs have much more power for Java demos, so the one should not exclude the other.
I just wanted to say that even though Windows XP itself was shipped without a JVM (MS VM or whatever), sp1 will install it again.
So that's what I meant by making a comeback.
Let's face it, most people use Windows, and if they use Java, it is usually only in a browser, and usually in IE. So when MS took out Java, I suppose that the support for Java was reduced by an incredible amount.
Now that Java is back into Windows, more people can run it, and there's more reason to write Java again.
Mobile phones are nice yes... SymbianOS right?
I saw that even Doom was ported to it now...
But you can't compare a mobile phone to a PC.
PCs have much more power for Java demos, so the one should not exclude the other.
scali, i don't know if you've read the previous posts about what was needed for demos but wasn't provided so far by java.. in summary, if microsoft's vm is not 1.4, it's useless
I disagree, MS VM has sound extensions (muhmu supports it for example, also the Netscape sound extensions), 3d acceleration is not required, nor are resolution switches or highres timers. They would be nice additions, but without them, you can still make demos, and Digital Nerds, Yodel and Komplex have shown some excellent work without them.
(Godog is one of my all-time favourite demos).
As for slowness... It's not THAT slow if you know how to code :) and the current generation of CPUs makes Java fast enough (try www.sumea.com for some excellent software 3d).
I think we should make a distinction between Java demos and Windows demos.
You can't say that "It can't do X, and in Windows you can, so it sucks"...
I think that's the entire point about alternative platforms, isn't it?
That they have certain liminations, which you have to work around. Else you might aswell say that all alternative platforms, like C64, Amiga, CPC and what more are useless.
Just view each platform separately, they don't have to compete with the other platforms. We all know that there's no match for Windows anyway.
And if you DO let them compete (like eg the combined compo at ASM), it's still about the demo itself, not the technology it's using... Look at Lapsuus for example.
So in conclusion, no I don't think you NEED Java 1.4, and I don't think Java is useless just because it lacks things that some other platforms have. In fact I think that's the charm of alternative platforms such as Java.
The proof is already out there, good demos have been made in Java, without all the stuff that was mentioned just now (Again I refer to Digital Nerds, Yodel and Komplex).
(Godog is one of my all-time favourite demos).
As for slowness... It's not THAT slow if you know how to code :) and the current generation of CPUs makes Java fast enough (try www.sumea.com for some excellent software 3d).
I think we should make a distinction between Java demos and Windows demos.
You can't say that "It can't do X, and in Windows you can, so it sucks"...
I think that's the entire point about alternative platforms, isn't it?
That they have certain liminations, which you have to work around. Else you might aswell say that all alternative platforms, like C64, Amiga, CPC and what more are useless.
Just view each platform separately, they don't have to compete with the other platforms. We all know that there's no match for Windows anyway.
And if you DO let them compete (like eg the combined compo at ASM), it's still about the demo itself, not the technology it's using... Look at Lapsuus for example.
So in conclusion, no I don't think you NEED Java 1.4, and I don't think Java is useless just because it lacks things that some other platforms have. In fact I think that's the charm of alternative platforms such as Java.
The proof is already out there, good demos have been made in Java, without all the stuff that was mentioned just now (Again I refer to Digital Nerds, Yodel and Komplex).
java si teh homo!
I think using browser specific extensions pretty much kills the whole idea of using Java. If this does not bother you, it's better to make "Windows Java Demos" which use MS VM like Komplex has done (Dozen, Elektronik Brain Revitalization, mixed bag, tulnukas). Dozen was 3rd at the Assembly '99 PC accelerated demo compo.
But I think making demos for 5 years old Microsoft VM just because MS wants to kill Java (to promote it's own clone C#) is not a "technological challenge", it's just plain stupid. It's like making DOS only demos because of the "technological challenge".
But I think making demos for 5 years old Microsoft VM just because MS wants to kill Java (to promote it's own clone C#) is not a "technological challenge", it's just plain stupid. It's like making DOS only demos because of the "technological challenge".
You can test for extensions and select which ones are available, and what you'll use.
So that it is compatible with all browsers (even though it means no music or such on some).
Digital Nerds and Komplex have done this ages ago already.
And yes, the later Komplex stuff is Windows-only, which makes it a Windows demo if you ask me, not a Java demo. In that case, Java is just another language to code Windows demos in.
Well DOS demos are a different matter altogether... DOS is not a true platform, just an OS. And DOS stuff tends to be problematic to run because of that.
Besides, DOS doesn't offer much of a 'technological challenge'... You might aswell do software rendering and software sound with DirectDraw/Sound in Windows.
I think it's better to compare with Amiga demos or such. That's an even older platform, but people still make demos for it, and it's still exciting, and still there's good productions coming from it... Like Lapsuus, Perfect Circle, Little Nell, The Castle, Impossible... to name but a few.
Is that plain stupid aswell?
So that it is compatible with all browsers (even though it means no music or such on some).
Digital Nerds and Komplex have done this ages ago already.
And yes, the later Komplex stuff is Windows-only, which makes it a Windows demo if you ask me, not a Java demo. In that case, Java is just another language to code Windows demos in.
Well DOS demos are a different matter altogether... DOS is not a true platform, just an OS. And DOS stuff tends to be problematic to run because of that.
Besides, DOS doesn't offer much of a 'technological challenge'... You might aswell do software rendering and software sound with DirectDraw/Sound in Windows.
I think it's better to compare with Amiga demos or such. That's an even older platform, but people still make demos for it, and it's still exciting, and still there's good productions coming from it... Like Lapsuus, Perfect Circle, Little Nell, The Castle, Impossible... to name but a few.
Is that plain stupid aswell?
Oh I should add that I don't think everyone should code Java 1.1 or such...
I merely meant to say that Java 1.1 is the most widespread platform, and it's quite possible to do good demos on it, imho, and I've given examples of what I consider good Java demos.
If you want to write Java 1.4 instead, that's fine, but that means you will have a much smaller audience.
Your own choice.
However, as you can see from some of the demos (like Forward, and most Digital Nerds stuff), it's perfectly possible to support multiple versions/extensions, and figure out at runtime what is available, and use the best possible.
That way your demos are more accessible.
I merely meant to say that Java 1.1 is the most widespread platform, and it's quite possible to do good demos on it, imho, and I've given examples of what I consider good Java demos.
If you want to write Java 1.4 instead, that's fine, but that means you will have a much smaller audience.
Your own choice.
However, as you can see from some of the demos (like Forward, and most Digital Nerds stuff), it's perfectly possible to support multiple versions/extensions, and figure out at runtime what is available, and use the best possible.
That way your demos are more accessible.
*fart*
i think the question is, what _can_ you do in java that is not slower thenn when it's done in c/c++ ?
other then that its just another platform. if you like developing demos on it by all means knock yourself out. hope you do some nice stuff on it.
ps: I think your question misses my point completely.
It might not be as fast or sophisticated as native Windows with C/C++ or whatever other language (nobody claimed that anyway)... but that's the charm of it all.
You'll be doing different things. Or doing the same things differently :)
Personally I find the 'alternative' demos refreshing... Like Amiga demos, you know that a lot of skill has gone in the code, to make the 3d rasterizer run smoothly and accurately. It's not just a sceneplayer on OGL or such that may play nice scenes very nicely, that really didn't require much work at all.
I find such demos utterly boring most of the time... There's very little originality in most of them, and the skills that were required for making them were not that great, even though the endresult might look nice and polished.
It might not be as fast or sophisticated as native Windows with C/C++ or whatever other language (nobody claimed that anyway)... but that's the charm of it all.
You'll be doing different things. Or doing the same things differently :)
Personally I find the 'alternative' demos refreshing... Like Amiga demos, you know that a lot of skill has gone in the code, to make the 3d rasterizer run smoothly and accurately. It's not just a sceneplayer on OGL or such that may play nice scenes very nicely, that really didn't require much work at all.
I find such demos utterly boring most of the time... There's very little originality in most of them, and the skills that were required for making them were not that great, even though the endresult might look nice and polished.