pouët.net

Anyway, why did I write that big thing? But just notice how badly AI has divided society into two camps. And rightly so.

I think the provocative thing was the "fun" part. And it was... but it really is (fun), and a lot of people will never know. But when re-reading I realize that if you read it quickly in anger you may miss the second part about not using it for demos, so my bad for that I guess. Oh well...

I read it. It's ok. I wasn't thinking you use it for demos. But we have to think how vastly accelerated AI hit so hard all of the communities, fields and society, and everybody is on arms. Like it's depressing. And I find myself arguing sometimes and them trolling about the five stages of grief.

Also about fun. It's very distant. In rare cases, I decided to ask it (and only free version, only Copilot as it was there with VS) on some of my retro project to do something or find a bug, and sometimes it's impressive. And it's a luring demon. Like it could have sucked me. But because of the bad taste in my mouth and many many other reasons I cannot have fun coding this way ever. Impressed by the technology yes, but not using it.

Sasq, I'm with you on this one.

AI is here to stay, and a lot of people are using it today. The question will soon be: "who will admit to using AI in a demo to speed up their development?"

Right now, I like mixing my own code with Claude's work. It's like having a coding buddy who stimulates me and writes more code than I ever could in my (small amount of) free time. So instead of having dead projects, I have some that actually get finished.
I won't take credit for the code I didn't write, only for the parts I did.

We are entering a new era. We will need new rules.

I stopped reading at this point.

(If you think this is an invitation to a debate, you’re wrong.)

There is no debate, this is a statement.

Exactly. I actually see the great variety of rules for current parties as a good thing. There is something for everybody.

My main hope is that this will not turn into a sharp divide. That the majority will appreciate that "with AI" and "without AI" is a false dichotomy when it comes to code.

I am still hoping we can find a way to have demo compos with at least limited AI use.
Sure it can be hard, but its hard in sports too. Take cycling, with its constant doping checks and tweaking of the rules...

Maybe for coding the rule could be "You have to type all code yourself". So you can ask AI for help, but you should not copy/paste but instead copy (or rephrase) by hand.

Then we could have 3 levels of competitions; "Anything goes" (Full AI), "Traditional" (no directly generated code) and "Hardcore" (Start from scratch in a room with no Internet :)

100%

The fundamental problem with that kind of categorization is that it assumes that all code was written "by hand" before AI, which is far from being the case. Specialized code generators and transformers (e.g. shader minification) have been standard practice in the Demoscene for decades.

If you wrote the code that generated the code, that's fine.
Demos produced with Demo-editors probably needs to go into "Anything Goes"
4K-Intros that uses frameworks developed over a long time... yeah, its hard.

Some ideas...

Visuals

• AI-2D: Generated textures, sprites, backgrounds, or concept art.
  
• AI-3D: Generated 3D models, Gaussian splats, NeRFs, or animations.
  
• AI-Video: Generated video loops or AI-restyled render passes.
  

Audio

• AI-Music: Fully or partially generated soundtrack/stems.
  
• AI-Voice/SFX: Generated vocals, speech synthesis, or sound effects.
  

Code

• AI-Core-Code: Shaders, effects, or core algorithms generated by AI.
  
• AI-Assist-Code: Autocomplete, refactoring, debugging, or boilerplate setup.
  
• AI-Runtime: The executable runs a neural model/weights in real time.
  

Pipeline

• AI-Tooling: Built using custom trackers, packers, synths, or engines created with AI.
  

- AI-ShutUp

What the shit is that list of vomit supposed to be?

Like compos at an AI party or what?


Did you ask fuckin’ grok to come up with that?

AI will be soon everywhere (art, audio, code, design ....).

So guess the solution is to have "100% human" categories

And it will be hard to add proofs than AI have not been used.

...which translates to: banning AI from demoscene compos - which is what we already do ;)

nobody needs "AI compos" - it's an oxymoron - there wouldn't be any competition any more, or human expression.

Seriously speaking and honestly curious without any curse words, I would like to ask Mr. Doob and other AI proponents: why would anyone want to watch, hear or experience any of stuff on the list? What would anyone get out of it? What would it give to the viewer compared to human-made stuff?

Creating a scene production is not binary work. It is a composition of multiple knowledge and some have been improved with technology innovations.

For example why looking at PC demo where graphic cards do all the display stuff. Your both remarks can apply there : Why looking at work done by a graphic card and what is human expression when 90% of the shader work is done by that graphic card. Old coder would say that human should display every single pixels. So ban all graphic cards.

Same logic with AI. It is a tool that can handle some part of the creation, so you can judge the part done by an human.

And yes, if nothing is done by an human, you can ask the question. But it is not a pure black of white situation. Ban AI from compo is a way to make them die quicker than they already do :)

”Another thing exists so your critique towards AI is moot” is not the kind of sick burn you think it is…

I don’t think compos are dying tbh.

Usually when something already work the same way, the probability it will do the same is high :)

There are so many example that goes in the same logic .... Using samples from already existing songs, beeing a DJ, using a 3D engine .... You can ask "where is the human expression when the work is already done ?".

Some will consider that prompting is human expression.

you're just lazy and should be judged for it.

You are using a computer for writing your messages, you should carve it in stone. Lazy you are :)

And there it is folks: The Guy in the Well.

@uncle-x:



Disclosures to make judging easier.