On using tools like Notch for making demos...
category: general [glöplog]
Mysdee:
Aren't eg. sizecoding intros still understood this way (programming is an indispensable part) and I don't think it reduces them to programming because there's the aspect of visual and audial creation as well.
But there's two ways to defend (non-selfmade) 3d engines: to claim that their use aligns with scene's traditional core ideas or to claim that those core ideas can be updated when a wider technological context changes. I think this latter option is more plausible since the programming was traditionally understood as indispensable. Accepting 3d engines doesn't entail accepting AI since they both need their own peculiar defenses.
(Also to clarify: 3d engines don't remove scene's DIY aspect but change what it covers, perhaps resembling the acceptance of Windows graphics libraries in the 1990s which was problem for some people)
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If we define demos exclusively by whether they involve conventional programming, we end up reducing a fundamentally collaborative art form to a single discipline.
Aren't eg. sizecoding intros still understood this way (programming is an indispensable part) and I don't think it reduces them to programming because there's the aspect of visual and audial creation as well.
But there's two ways to defend (non-selfmade) 3d engines: to claim that their use aligns with scene's traditional core ideas or to claim that those core ideas can be updated when a wider technological context changes. I think this latter option is more plausible since the programming was traditionally understood as indispensable. Accepting 3d engines doesn't entail accepting AI since they both need their own peculiar defenses.
(Also to clarify: 3d engines don't remove scene's DIY aspect but change what it covers, perhaps resembling the acceptance of Windows graphics libraries in the 1990s which was problem for some people)
This is by far the most passionate and vibrant thread about what the Demoscene is at its very core
This discussion is repeating for the bajillionth time and the opinions and conclusions are the same.
true.
but.
some topics deserve to be the repeated. it's like talking inside your own head, except with people, it helps "the scene" (which is not pouet) to figure what it is the scene wants, what the scene is, what the scene will be.
It's reinforcing.
And it's also funny because you can grab popcorn and have a laugh…
but.
some topics deserve to be the repeated. it's like talking inside your own head, except with people, it helps "the scene" (which is not pouet) to figure what it is the scene wants, what the scene is, what the scene will be.
It's reinforcing.
And it's also funny because you can grab popcorn and have a laugh…
People clearly have nothing else to talk about.
using tools instead of coding everything yourself frees up time to talk about what the demoscene truly needs!
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People clearly have nothing else to talk about.
Here? no.
Come to talk to me on discord for alternative takes, memes and weird snippets!
My point is that it should be fine to use tools as long as the end result is slow and ugly
i kinda miss Flash demos.
i grew up with Newgrounds way before I found the demoscene... Always wondered why Flash wasn't prevalent here and the scenes seem split!
flash peaked at fartingdogsorchestra.swf and flashback.swf
hyakugojyuuichi.swf, allyoutbase.swf
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it helps "the scene" (which is not pouet) to figure what it is the scene wants, what the scene is, what the scene will be
Problem is, »the scene« is not a being with one opinion. It consists of thousands of sceners who all have their own feelings, opinions and worldviews. So I always find it funny when someone says »this is NOT demoscene, because demoscene is [enter something here]«. These are always subjective views. Truth is, the demoscene is the sum of everything sceners submit to compos (or release independent from parties as a scene-release). Some things will receive more support than others. But in the end, everything defines the demoscene.
yeah I'm pretty sure my comment did not mean what you thought it meant.
Might be.
now we'll never know
I like the point of Loaderror/EPH. The coder should do something new, faster or better (more beautiful). It is not an easy task against Notch but the essence of demomaking is to set the next top notch!
then again, maybe not everything is about 'the coder'
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The coder should do something new, faster or better (more beautiful).
Line goes up
I ask myself is the problem for some people that sceners using tools like Notch to produce demos or is the problem that they are winning compos with it.
Back in the day, the Scene (yes, the one) struggled hard to produce not only own code (intros), but also the graphics and, more importantly (because harder), the tunage to go along with it all.
Thus fully scene-made productions (demos) became a thing, and stayed so, for quite a while.
Fully group-made code+gfx+music (save some external libs and other additional code and such) became the norm.
By that token, a production that goes without "local" code/gfx/music credits is a step back.
Thus fully scene-made productions (demos) became a thing, and stayed so, for quite a while.
Fully group-made code+gfx+music (save some external libs and other additional code and such) became the norm.
By that token, a production that goes without "local" code/gfx/music credits is a step back.
It was already hard to judge demos before, is this hand coded, did the musician use how own sounds, samples… did he use sample cds? did the graphic artists take inspirations from somewhere, did he flat out scan or ripped an other famous illustrator?
But also, did the coder rip a shader from shadertoy?
On top the usual questions: what is the demo demonstrating? is it style? is it tech? is it performances? originality?
There's no exact answer as every sceners (from "The Scene") have their own idea of why they are in the scene (as gaspode reminded me), some want to win, some want to play.
But also, did the coder rip a shader from shadertoy?
On top the usual questions: what is the demo demonstrating? is it style? is it tech? is it performances? originality?
There's no exact answer as every sceners (from "The Scene") have their own idea of why they are in the scene (as gaspode reminded me), some want to win, some want to play.
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some want to win, some want to play.
and some just want to watch the world burn…
