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Promoting Demoscene In INDIA :)
category: general [glöplog]
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(Hi Manwe, I'm just writing for clarity that I'm not the one you're having a conversation with. Cheers, TomCat
There are like 26 known sceners with this nickname on Demozoo, so...
but only one acts like a pigeon on a chess board
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but only one acts like a pigeon on a chess board
You’re mixing things up. Look at the thread: I make a point, and the same circle immediately responds with mockery instead of arguments. That repeats every single time.
I don’t need to convince you — but don’t pretend I’m the one derailing when I’ve stayed on topic and you turned it into a sideshow. If you disagree, argue the substance. If you can’t, then stop trying to police who’s allowed to speak. Moral outrage is not a substitute for an argument.
The topic was DEMOSCENE IN INDIA, and _you_ were the one derailing it to Eastern Europe, the "golden age" of the scene, and whatnot. I really feel sorry for the original thread poster.
Was it really _I_, dear dipswitch? Did I ask this question?
Or did I ask this question?
People are having a discussion here, and you aren't the forum police. We drifted into a discussion about a different topic, and so what?
You don't have a problem with offtopic discussions. You have a problem with me, personally. Man up and say it.
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I’m curious, in your opinion, how was the demoscene in the ex-USSR different from the European one? (besides Amiga)
Or did I ask this question?
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By the way, how do you explain the lack of a demoscene in the USA, where access to computers (and Amiga in particular) was definitely no worse than in Western Europe?
People are having a discussion here, and you aren't the forum police. We drifted into a discussion about a different topic, and so what?
You don't have a problem with offtopic discussions. You have a problem with me, personally. Man up and say it.
look tomcat, it's a recurring pattern:
* you derail a thread
* people call you out for it
* you make it all about yourself and play the victim, while spitting ugly insults all around
(and yes, I have a personal problem with you)
* you derail a thread
* people call you out for it
* you make it all about yourself and play the victim, while spitting ugly insults all around
(and yes, I have a personal problem with you)
No, v3nom, you’re mistaken. Whenever I comment, one of you immediately starts hyperventilating about “derailment.” This thread wasn’t derailed — we were talking about demoscene history, which is exactly the topic. Discussions drift, that’s normal. What actually derails threads are your perpetual moral lectures.
Read back the topic. My first comment was a direct reply to the original post. On-topic. Then Noctis barged in claiming I was “only here to rile up people.” That’s not a counterargument, that’s an ad hominem.
Now your entire group piles on, one by one, expressing outrage over my tone or even the fact that I dare to talk at all — yet not a single argument on the substance. Then you try to gaslight everyone into believing I’m the one who “always” derails threads. Meanwhile dipswitch acts as if someone mentioning the Russian demoscene in a thread about India is a crime against humanity.
So let’s be clear: the derailment is coming from your circle, not me. And the funniest part is, we don’t even know each other. I don’t remember ever meeting or talking to you. If you never bothered to know me, then where does all this hate even come from?
Read back the topic. My first comment was a direct reply to the original post. On-topic. Then Noctis barged in claiming I was “only here to rile up people.” That’s not a counterargument, that’s an ad hominem.
Now your entire group piles on, one by one, expressing outrage over my tone or even the fact that I dare to talk at all — yet not a single argument on the substance. Then you try to gaslight everyone into believing I’m the one who “always” derails threads. Meanwhile dipswitch acts as if someone mentioning the Russian demoscene in a thread about India is a crime against humanity.
So let’s be clear: the derailment is coming from your circle, not me. And the funniest part is, we don’t even know each other. I don’t remember ever meeting or talking to you. If you never bothered to know me, then where does all this hate even come from?
So can we go back on topic. India is ass huge, would be interesting whats going on, if they know the scene.
@tomcat
Just open a similar threat with the Russian demoscene, this might be also interesting.
@tomcat
Just open a similar threat with the Russian demoscene, this might be also interesting.
A *threat*? :P
He meant "open a thread", dumbass.
I found a demoscene in India :)
https://algorave.in/
seriously, this is very close to the demoscene and demoparty
https://algorave.in/
seriously, this is very close to the demoscene and demoparty
Does it makes us algoholics?
I'm not supporting tomcatmawi in any way, but it's kinda true v3nom has this "moral police" vibe...just saying.
I just made an account right now to post my two cents on this as somebody who is both 1.) indian and 2.) a person who has a passive interest in demoscene stuff and older computers. There are a couple critical differences in the field of general computer stuff when you compare developing countries like India, and countries where you have a demoscene community, which makes it impossible to create the sort of situation where these groups actually rise up.
So, first lets look at the environment in Europe and the Americas.
- Availability of computers: Some would argue (this is actually true and nobody is arguing about it, its essentially uncontested fact) that the C64 is what the prototype to the demoscene, namely, "cracktros" originated on. The reason for this is because it was the fraction of the price of something like an Apple ][ or NES, between the prices of $99 to $200, if what they say on the internet is true, and the fact that it was easily available at any major toy store. You could just buy one and plug it to the TV as entertainment for your kids, without having to justify it as a financial investment.
- Availability of code and programs: Each system came with a detailed reference manual for the language and almost every computer-related book of the time had actual BASIC code you can directly type, or adapt to whatever the hell you were using, so simple programs were child's play and complex graphical stuff could be mastered with a manageable learning curve. Other than this, you could buy programs on cartridge, tape, and later, floppies from stores that were in walking or driving distance (within 10 kilometers of your house) and the process of copying them for free distribution and the later process of bypassing copy-protection is what created cracking groups in the first place.
- Availability of a community: You could meet up with people who also own the exact same computer you do, trade stuff, share tips, and most importantly collaborate on projects and stuff, or alternatively use BBSes over dial-up to communicate as well as share programs. This existence of a community is why the demoscene is even a thing right now.
Now lets compare this to what was going on in my glorious country:
- Availability of computers: The closest thing to a computer most kids of the time period would ever behold is a Casio wristwatch or a calculator if they were lucky. And no, we are not talking about graphing calculators, I mean a financial calculator which does arithmetic. If you were rich, or had relatives working abroad, by the grace of God Almighty, you may be able to touch a clone of an NES. If you were even richer, you may have a PC-compatible at home for your parent's work documents, and being in a one-meter radius of the thing will earn you what is considered to be "cruel and unusual punishment".
- Availability of software: In your dreams. Unless you considered MS-DOS or WordStar, it is not available anywhere in whole subcontinent. And forget about games, except for Tetris somehow. This was the case until the mid-90s, at which point some people started getting Internet connections, and the few technically adept to do so would share things like Test Drive and 688 Attack Sub. A couple people would import magazines from abroad and that's it.
- Availability of a community: Actual engineers, who hardly care about any of the factors that contributed to demoscene formation, as they would just get software through the employer or just share a legit installer disk for work software as well as the license keys. Digital piracy only became a thing here by the time VCDs came around, and it was far too late for demoscene by then.
The reality is that personal computing only started appearing in India among the laymen by the time the Pentium 4 was a thing. My father was one of the fraction of people who had rich relatives, one of his uncles having a business importing computer parts back in the day, to be able to get a computer. The first one he had according to him, was a Tandy 2000. He later on worked part-time in sales at HCL before it became irrelevant, ran an embedded systems business with a friend for a while, and went to a few conferences with him, of companies like IBM and Sun. The point is that while the people in the west have had actual computers capable of being programmed by a user since the 8-bit era, and even the resources to be able to build one out of components like relays and 74-series logic like enthusiasts could since the 70s, in India, the first computer an average person has seen in their life is most likely a Core 2 Duo Box at their institution or workplace. The average person has never had to deal with things like only having 64k of memory, poking registers, or making a sprite by drawing blocks on paper into a grid and then figuring out values in memory in order to plug it into a computer. An average Indian considers their computer to be the thing they use to browse the web, write documents, and maybe play GTA on. Nobody has had any attachment to the physical machines they owned and the specific intricacies or tricks of the hardware they learned, because that sort of thinking has never been relevant here. There is no incentive to push the machine to its absolute limit, as what we learned is tolerating its faults. So, this is why I think the demoscene won't catch on much in India.
So, first lets look at the environment in Europe and the Americas.
- Availability of computers: Some would argue (this is actually true and nobody is arguing about it, its essentially uncontested fact) that the C64 is what the prototype to the demoscene, namely, "cracktros" originated on. The reason for this is because it was the fraction of the price of something like an Apple ][ or NES, between the prices of $99 to $200, if what they say on the internet is true, and the fact that it was easily available at any major toy store. You could just buy one and plug it to the TV as entertainment for your kids, without having to justify it as a financial investment.
- Availability of code and programs: Each system came with a detailed reference manual for the language and almost every computer-related book of the time had actual BASIC code you can directly type, or adapt to whatever the hell you were using, so simple programs were child's play and complex graphical stuff could be mastered with a manageable learning curve. Other than this, you could buy programs on cartridge, tape, and later, floppies from stores that were in walking or driving distance (within 10 kilometers of your house) and the process of copying them for free distribution and the later process of bypassing copy-protection is what created cracking groups in the first place.
- Availability of a community: You could meet up with people who also own the exact same computer you do, trade stuff, share tips, and most importantly collaborate on projects and stuff, or alternatively use BBSes over dial-up to communicate as well as share programs. This existence of a community is why the demoscene is even a thing right now.
Now lets compare this to what was going on in my glorious country:
- Availability of computers: The closest thing to a computer most kids of the time period would ever behold is a Casio wristwatch or a calculator if they were lucky. And no, we are not talking about graphing calculators, I mean a financial calculator which does arithmetic. If you were rich, or had relatives working abroad, by the grace of God Almighty, you may be able to touch a clone of an NES. If you were even richer, you may have a PC-compatible at home for your parent's work documents, and being in a one-meter radius of the thing will earn you what is considered to be "cruel and unusual punishment".
- Availability of software: In your dreams. Unless you considered MS-DOS or WordStar, it is not available anywhere in whole subcontinent. And forget about games, except for Tetris somehow. This was the case until the mid-90s, at which point some people started getting Internet connections, and the few technically adept to do so would share things like Test Drive and 688 Attack Sub. A couple people would import magazines from abroad and that's it.
- Availability of a community: Actual engineers, who hardly care about any of the factors that contributed to demoscene formation, as they would just get software through the employer or just share a legit installer disk for work software as well as the license keys. Digital piracy only became a thing here by the time VCDs came around, and it was far too late for demoscene by then.
The reality is that personal computing only started appearing in India among the laymen by the time the Pentium 4 was a thing. My father was one of the fraction of people who had rich relatives, one of his uncles having a business importing computer parts back in the day, to be able to get a computer. The first one he had according to him, was a Tandy 2000. He later on worked part-time in sales at HCL before it became irrelevant, ran an embedded systems business with a friend for a while, and went to a few conferences with him, of companies like IBM and Sun. The point is that while the people in the west have had actual computers capable of being programmed by a user since the 8-bit era, and even the resources to be able to build one out of components like relays and 74-series logic like enthusiasts could since the 70s, in India, the first computer an average person has seen in their life is most likely a Core 2 Duo Box at their institution or workplace. The average person has never had to deal with things like only having 64k of memory, poking registers, or making a sprite by drawing blocks on paper into a grid and then figuring out values in memory in order to plug it into a computer. An average Indian considers their computer to be the thing they use to browse the web, write documents, and maybe play GTA on. Nobody has had any attachment to the physical machines they owned and the specific intricacies or tricks of the hardware they learned, because that sort of thinking has never been relevant here. There is no incentive to push the machine to its absolute limit, as what we learned is tolerating its faults. So, this is why I think the demoscene won't catch on much in India.
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So, this is why I think the demoscene won't catch on much in India.
not with that attitude!
if there are computers available and people interested in exploring them creatively, a demoscene is possible to bloom. you do need to sink the hours into making it actually happen though.
even if computers weren't available in the 90s, a modern demoscene doesnt need to be deeply linked to retro computing in order to blossom, japanese demoscene is a good example of that.
only thing you need is someone with the time and patience to organize things regularly and herd the cats together.
did a video about how/why/what bootstrapping a local scene community in places where there is none a little while ago link. there are others in same position as you trying same thing in other countries and plenty of people who can give you protips in how to set it up if you're interested.
you "just" need free time and dedication. not always available when people have higher priorities in life i realize, but not that farfetched to happen either.
There are already great releases from India,
For example the revision TShirts.
For example the revision TShirts.
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if there are computers available and people interested in exploring them creatively, a demoscene is possible to bloom.
Thankfully, I have noticed that there has been a recent uptick here in "naturally occuring" interest regarding stuff like DIY electronics kits and programming among the youth (as opposed to forced half-baked implementations in our education system, like what we did under the name of "ICT"), which could act as groundwork for stuff like this in the future.
And, this is without mentioning how there are now things like apps and sites that allow you to actually code on phones, and really the only remaining factor needed is people converging on one standard platform and learning its specific quirks.