Coding assistants
category: code [glöplog]
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People were able to (and did) rip code, graphics and music since forever (...) [AI] only makes it harder to spot.
The fact AI is just like copy&past and it's ripping off other people's work was long time disputed.
More accurate would be to compare using [wolfram alpha](https://www.wolframalpha.com/) vs pencil/paper to solve ray intersection formula. Using CAS (computer algebra system) is of course less respectable and it soften your skills, but it's widely considered a fair use. Modern AI is just that - on steroids.
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The fact AI is just like copy&past and it's ripping off other people's work was long time disputed.
Yeah. It’s worse. It’s copy&paste&hide your tracks.
OK, I’m not getting dragged into another one of these by this relentless Renfield character. I’m tired boss.
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It’s copy&paste&hide your tracks.
How would it be just that if it can modify your existing code and "understand" (shallowly or not) the context.
How much do you use AI assistance daily?
I can see many people have plenty of things to say without even trying it out.
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Imho, in the context of coding as savourable art / skill, having AI do "the gruntwork" is a slippery slope, at first it'll be having AI write the things one has written a hundred times before ("I could write this in my sleep in all possible permutations"), then it'll be having AI "figure out" the minor implementation details ("I could write this with not too much thinking involved"), then it'll be having it figure out the implementation of a well known algorithm ("I understood the algorithm but not how to actually implement it"), then it'll be having it suggest and implement the algorithm ("I had the AI suggest applicable algorithms and implement the one i chose") and so on and so forth. Each step leads to drastically shallower and shallower knowledge and retention of it. I'm fearing a lot of people are prone to giving in to the provided comfort and the illusion that "i could do this myself if I wanted to spend the time", only that "the time" actually becomes a couple of years of actual experience at some point.
It's a slippery slope indeed. And I, for one, am intensely curious to see where that slope leads. If we don't explore it, we will never know.
Rather than condemning the slop before it has even hit our beamers, let's wade through it and discover the gold nuggets hiding among it.
I would rather watch an entertaining, vibe-coded demo than a boring scroller any day.
It's not copy'n'paste, it's the processing of data that is available in plain sight. What's happening inside the machine is not very much unlike what's happening in a brain. I reject that this can be immoral.
Of course you can disagree, but then you run into the dilemma that it's equally immoral to have used all the fotos, fonts, cartoon snippets and 3d models you downloaded and from which you learned or used in derivative works. Or visited museums and studied oil paintings or ancient sculptures.
It's a systemic development, unavoidable. If you try to be consistent, call for unwinding and rolling back the internet all the way to the pleistocene, because everything since the neolithic revolution is evil.
Of course you can disagree, but then you run into the dilemma that it's equally immoral to have used all the fotos, fonts, cartoon snippets and 3d models you downloaded and from which you learned or used in derivative works. Or visited museums and studied oil paintings or ancient sculptures.
It's a systemic development, unavoidable. If you try to be consistent, call for unwinding and rolling back the internet all the way to the pleistocene, because everything since the neolithic revolution is evil.
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What's happening inside the machine is not very much unlike what's happening in a brain.
Do you understand that subconscious residue of being exposed to different imagery through your life which results in that “original” piece art that you draw WITH YOUR HAND, from your imagination, using your whole lifetime of acquired skills, DOES NOT EQUAL prompting it out of the machine? Yes/No?
It's exactly the same. You can make neural networks dream and hallucinate. I made such experiments more than 20 years ago.
And besides, you're falling back into a pattern of asking questions like "are you stupid or understand that..."
And besides, you're falling back into a pattern of asking questions like "are you stupid or understand that..."
Here we go again...
4gentE: yes, you have learned only from an experience of a single agent (so called you), which stifles your growth. Imagine what you could achieve by learning from experience of other agents!
4gentE: yes, you have learned only from an experience of a single agent (so called you), which stifles your growth. Imagine what you could achieve by learning from experience of other agents!
We’re talking demoscene here guys. Demoscene is about the skill. The purpose of AI is to circumvent skill.
bifat, what youkre saying is that buying a toaster pizza end stuffing it into microwave oven equals making it all the way from flour and water. It’s not. Even if the result was the same (and it never is) that would not matter in context of the demoscene, because the demoscene is imho about the skill in the process of making the pizza, not so much the end result itself.
bifat, what youkre saying is that buying a toaster pizza end stuffing it into microwave oven equals making it all the way from flour and water. It’s not. Even if the result was the same (and it never is) that would not matter in context of the demoscene, because the demoscene is imho about the skill in the process of making the pizza, not so much the end result itself.
@tomkh
I swear man, I suspect you might be Borg. ;)
I swear man, I suspect you might be Borg. ;)
4gentE: performative art is about skill: playing music live on live instruments, dancing, singing algorithm etc...what we do here is smoke and mirrors.
(I didn't mean to say algorithm)
I'm more and more thinking that the comparison with the introduction of hardware acceleration for 3D rendering is appropriate. I can easily imagine that people back then thought it's going to be very bad because every demo will look like Quake III Arena and all the creativity and craft will be gone. This was somewhat true for a while as we can see from the many 3D flybys exported from 3DS Max which were released back then, but eventually the new technology came to be used in interesting ways and the "definition of a demo" changed because people were making new things and calling them demos for an audience that accepted them as demos. Another historical note of importance on that subject is that the first demos were single-screen affairs and when multiple such screens were put together this was known as a "megademo". The vast majority of demos these days are technically megademos, but it's not necessary to use that term anymore because it's irrelevant.
I have no idea what to expect from future creative works really, but that seems to be par for the course when it comes to groundbreaking new technologies throughout history. I agree that we should at least first give everyone a chance to use it and see what we come up with. Maybe it'll be the next RSDM or maybe it will be the next ARB_fragment_program, it's too early to tell.
I have no idea what to expect from future creative works really, but that seems to be par for the course when it comes to groundbreaking new technologies throughout history. I agree that we should at least first give everyone a chance to use it and see what we come up with. Maybe it'll be the next RSDM or maybe it will be the next ARB_fragment_program, it's too early to tell.
4gentE, I totally contest that AI is exclusively a device to circumvent skill, even in demoscene. Where would it end if you regulate away what you don't understand or like at first sight?
Trying out something new, this in itself is an integral part of demoscene.
I've been pissed off by new developments innumerous times, only once I accidentlly found myself pissing off others with tool usage. Now I see things more clearly.
We have used image generation in an inventive way in a team spending hundereds of hours, as an experimental device to achieve something bigger, which would've been prohibitive without.
It's also part of the pursuit, to be among the first to do something novel.
I'm saying all this in agreement with that it can get stale and boring if you overdo it, as an also-ran, too little, too late, don't put enough energy into things.
Sorry for self-aggrandization. What I want to convey is that you cannot wait for consent or agreement to do something novel. I love the feeling when I'm getting overpowered by an "artistic impulse" and I get into the flow knowing that something JUST HAS TO BE DONE because now is the time and opportunity and deadline awaits.
Trying out something new, this in itself is an integral part of demoscene.
I've been pissed off by new developments innumerous times, only once I accidentlly found myself pissing off others with tool usage. Now I see things more clearly.
We have used image generation in an inventive way in a team spending hundereds of hours, as an experimental device to achieve something bigger, which would've been prohibitive without.
It's also part of the pursuit, to be among the first to do something novel.
I'm saying all this in agreement with that it can get stale and boring if you overdo it, as an also-ran, too little, too late, don't put enough energy into things.
Sorry for self-aggrandization. What I want to convey is that you cannot wait for consent or agreement to do something novel. I love the feeling when I'm getting overpowered by an "artistic impulse" and I get into the flow knowing that something JUST HAS TO BE DONE because now is the time and opportunity and deadline awaits.
Also, AI code generation is a different thing now than it was a year ago, and it will be different one year from now.
This is our brief chance to experience this torrential process collectively, just like we collectively experienced the exponential rise of GPU computational power through the last 20 years.
Blink and you'll miss it. Ban it and we'll miss out on an entire generation of tools.
We can always go back. Pick up the experiences we find useful and leave the rest. People still make software rasterizers nowadays, but they probably do it with a rather different mindset than 30 years ago, due to the intervening experiences.
This is our brief chance to experience this torrential process collectively, just like we collectively experienced the exponential rise of GPU computational power through the last 20 years.
Blink and you'll miss it. Ban it and we'll miss out on an entire generation of tools.
We can always go back. Pick up the experiences we find useful and leave the rest. People still make software rasterizers nowadays, but they probably do it with a rather different mindset than 30 years ago, due to the intervening experiences.
All right. It’s not like we have any real power to fight it back.
@fizzer:
On a side note, yes, nowadays to me most PC demos look almost the same. In some categories a bit more, in some less. I don’t think I’m the only one.
No we can’t. Meaning “we” as humanity, we as a digital subculture, not “we” as you and me. If we continue on this path: The deep understanding of hardware will eventually be lost. The knowledge of boilerplate code will eventually be lost. The art of low level coding will eventually be lost. The art of pushing pixels will eventually be lost. We are expected to put a lot of faith in AI systems and their masters and their subscribtions being so resiliant as to last forever to give up knowledge that easily.
Oh, by the way, anybody here thinking of environmental sustainability?
@fizzer:
On a side note, yes, nowadays to me most PC demos look almost the same. In some categories a bit more, in some less. I don’t think I’m the only one.
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We can always go back.
No we can’t. Meaning “we” as humanity, we as a digital subculture, not “we” as you and me. If we continue on this path: The deep understanding of hardware will eventually be lost. The knowledge of boilerplate code will eventually be lost. The art of low level coding will eventually be lost. The art of pushing pixels will eventually be lost. We are expected to put a lot of faith in AI systems and their masters and their subscribtions being so resiliant as to last forever to give up knowledge that easily.
Oh, by the way, anybody here thinking of environmental sustainability?
We're back to conflating who says and what is being said, and alleging personal demerits.
Please exclude me from the collective "we". My best workstation is from 2012 and running FreeBSD. I halved my electric power consumption to 1400kWh/a. I've never subscribed to any AI service. I've spent the better part of my life dealing with boilerplate and lowlevel coding - efficiently. I consider faith a poison to reason. My Google account is for taking down Google content. I'm running mail and chat servers myself. Am I a good guy? No, because I wouldn't want to restrict others in doing things differently. :-)
Please exclude me from the collective "we". My best workstation is from 2012 and running FreeBSD. I halved my electric power consumption to 1400kWh/a. I've never subscribed to any AI service. I've spent the better part of my life dealing with boilerplate and lowlevel coding - efficiently. I consider faith a poison to reason. My Google account is for taking down Google content. I'm running mail and chat servers myself. Am I a good guy? No, because I wouldn't want to restrict others in doing things differently. :-)
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nowadays to me most PC demos look almost the same.
The PC demo category has always been a strange one because it's a changing platform and every PC demo compo has assumed some kind of up-to-date PC system to be the target platform with some bonus power coming from the fact that the compomachine can be way more powerful than the one available to you at home. This power is often under-used these days because even very inefficient code is enough to show something in realtime. In fact these days a PC demo entry may as well be just a streamed video - the main way that people judge them technically is by checking the size of the demo, but this is only after the compo has ended.
I think this category is the one where blatant use of AI will be most obvious, because the barrier to entry is the lowest. It's also the category where the mass-production of content thanks to AI is easiest to use as the main gimmick of your demo.
Well, bifat, to me you seem (in lack of a better word) either confused or confusing. I’m well aware of your “dogma level” proposal, and I know you’re partly into permacomputing. So why exactly are you saying this? Nobody “accused” you personally of anything so chill dude. There is one earth we have, and if you restrain yourself from doing more harm than needed, and then go and encourage others to do the exact opposite, your contribution to the cause gets cancelled out. Earth does not care about petty individualist principles. It’s, you know, physics.
Encouraging and despising blanket bans are two rather different things.
And yet again, you don't even notice it? For the umpteenth time: Being AI tolerant doesn't mean endorsing it, doesn't mean all-in, for everything or cheating. You sound to me like a walking conspiracy theory with an awfully short fuse. At the slightest opportunity, the masters appear. Or Trump, or Musk, the environment, or people in African sweatshops. If this is your concern, you might try opening a thread about ethical implications of AI usage?
Yeah, you’re right. My bad. I did say “by the way” but nevertheless. And for the second time (seeing that you don’t get it or ignore): physics has nothing to do with ethics.
Krill: where have you seen me proposing any kind of ban, let alone a “blanket ban”? I see youkre getting into a bit ofba strawmaning yourself.
Krill: where have you seen me proposing any kind of ban, let alone a “blanket ban”? I see youkre getting into a bit ofba strawmaning yourself.
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capitalism is a nice resource allocation system. no need to propagate it either, it's self-emergent in a free society.
Yeah, biffy. I’m a conspiracy theorist. An this is your quote. In case people forget.
Thank you for bringing this up! It's a good one, one of my favourites. :-)
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I'm more and more thinking that the comparison with the introduction of hardware acceleration for 3D rendering is appropriate.
Hey fizzer, very long time no chat.
I guess for my personal opinion on the entire thing, I have to agree with you. I seen how various things over my time here, all were apparently the death of the Scene, thus "The Scene is Dead".
First it was 3D acceleration being cheating, then it was certain packer methods being cheating, then it was certain DLLs being cheating, then certain resources on OS being cheating, thus apparently the scene will die. Personally, as someone who has been doing physical artworks since their departure temporarily from the Scene, I think the whole "scene is dead" by AI is completely overblown. There is still a place for human creativity I think and nothing will replace people. To me at the end of the day, it is a tool. People can make their own minds on the ethics and legality of such tools. Personally the minefield lately has been so toxic and turned deeply political either way in either direction I rather not be bothered at all, just because of that.
