What you expect and want to see in a modern 2025 and forward high end demo?
category: general [glöplog]
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Quote:That's a good example of "grey area" artefact.
The grey area is subjectivity. (...) While the definition remains objective, (...)
So I started digging a bit more into Arthur Danto's philosophy of art. And, as I understand, he was not really suggesting an "objective definition" of art. The objectivity doesn't apply to the definition, but to the methodology of art criticism. This is not the same. From what I understand, he was advocating to look at art in more objective way by restraining from subjective taste and focusing on the meaning and form (or embodiment as he calls it) and apply grounded interpretation in the context of art history.
This makes much more sense to me and does not actually contradict my view that in a deeper sense, art is still a fluid/open concept. It only means criticism can be more grounded if you agree to apply Danto's methodology.
Now I expect and want to see this (pseudo-)philosophical drama properly explored in a modern demo.
Can we have philosopher battle compo where we dis each other and have a general beef about nature of reality onegai
Can we have philosopher battle compo where we dis each other and have a general beef about nature of reality onegai
Stupid cubes and copperbars!
A plasma, and a side scroll rant about a recent party in an unreadable font.
For me the modern high end demo where the sweet spot is a hybrid: 3D used with strong 2D craft, compositing, feedback, vector fields, typography, palettes, painterly post, clever sync. Pure 3D “showreels” are fine, but that’s almost a separate category.
Music should serve the idea and mood (whatever the style), not fight it. You can usually tell when weeks of iteration went into camera, timing, color, transitions, and perf polish.
Coding is still an artform. Im no fan of Unity/Unreal and mega-engines out of this, unless you’re a 3D artist with no coding chops, in which case it’s a different showcase. I'd like to see custom pipelines, small engines, hand-rolled tricks, and fresh ideas. That’s the spirit that made the scene.
Music should serve the idea and mood (whatever the style), not fight it. You can usually tell when weeks of iteration went into camera, timing, color, transitions, and perf polish.
Coding is still an artform. Im no fan of Unity/Unreal and mega-engines out of this, unless you’re a 3D artist with no coding chops, in which case it’s a different showcase. I'd like to see custom pipelines, small engines, hand-rolled tricks, and fresh ideas. That’s the spirit that made the scene.
more scene poetry in demos and less of whatever the fuck this thread is
also gay cats
also gay cats
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Stupid cubes and copperbars!
Instead of smart cubes and.. ? =)
My answer to this question is simple: to beat top 3 PC demos at Xenium... but I know this may be extremely hard for a non Polish team... but maybe one day some of the promising international groups may try... :D
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more scene poetry in demos and less of whatever the fuck this thread is
also gay cats
Yeah I had this beautiful and super sweet and actually better than any meds against bad feelings cat: Pim. But I did always for some reason I can't explain think he was gay :D Hehe, hope you're doing well Lynn.
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A plasma, and a side scroll rant about a recent party in an unreadable font.
Is that an demo idea you propose?
The problem then is some slunts will find such an idea 100% offensive to their ideas of what is demoscene or art and what it turns out, which to me, judging by some people's reactions: are entirely two fucking different things. And that for demoscene things to be taken as art, they HAVE to have a certain level of artisanship to them to be taken as a demoscene thing and worthy of being in the scene to begin with.
Which to be fucking honest, is why I stopped doing any more prods. I am fucking tired of being told of what is demoscene and what isn't.
I know that someone is edging to ban me for that take. But after 5 years of being absent, I truly don't give a fuck.
What to expect?
Properly modeled cog wheels. Not the abominations which make engineers scream.
Properly modeled cog wheels. Not the abominations which make engineers scream.
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Which to be fucking honest, is why I stopped doing any more prods. I am fucking tired of being told of what is demoscene and what isn't.
I know that someone is edging to ban me for that take. But after 5 years of being absent, I truly don't give a fuck.
Whaa? Just ignore those telling what it is and what is not and do your own thing. You did great things IMHO.
Is this the right thread to bring up vibe coding? Because the question "what do you expect from a high end demo", in my opinion, justifies it. But boy, is it a complicated topic!
Vibe coding is generally a terrible idea - but for a demo? Technically, it's not. A demo isn't some critical system you would want to maintain forever. Once it's released, it's done. Can anybody tell if it was coded with, or even by an AI? Not necessarily - perhaps not at all. Is it a reasonable expectation for a (high end) demo not to use vibe coding? Particularly if the only way to verify it is the honesty of its creator?
On the other hand, demos have long became a medium of creativity of all kind, and not necessarily strict coding skills. If Unity or VRM are legitimate demo platforms, can we add vibe coding to the list? A possible argument is that computers are too powerful now to push their limits. Can a coder use an AI to build code that still pushes the boundaries, like in old times? Perhaps even the AI itself could be a challenge in demomaking?
At the end of the day, the real question boils down to whether a demo may be created by vibe coding or not. Do you expect a demo to be 100% traditionally coded, by a human?
Vibe coding is generally a terrible idea - but for a demo? Technically, it's not. A demo isn't some critical system you would want to maintain forever. Once it's released, it's done. Can anybody tell if it was coded with, or even by an AI? Not necessarily - perhaps not at all. Is it a reasonable expectation for a (high end) demo not to use vibe coding? Particularly if the only way to verify it is the honesty of its creator?
On the other hand, demos have long became a medium of creativity of all kind, and not necessarily strict coding skills. If Unity or VRM are legitimate demo platforms, can we add vibe coding to the list? A possible argument is that computers are too powerful now to push their limits. Can a coder use an AI to build code that still pushes the boundaries, like in old times? Perhaps even the AI itself could be a challenge in demomaking?
At the end of the day, the real question boils down to whether a demo may be created by vibe coding or not. Do you expect a demo to be 100% traditionally coded, by a human?
I expect vibe coding to get its own compo category. I suggest we call it "irresponsible micropenis idiot charlatan compo". IMICO.
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I expect vibe coding to get its own compo category.
Fair suggestion, but:
- How would you validate the entries in the "real" categories?
- How could you tell if a "real" demo contains some vibe code?
- One more category translates to one more prize and an extra time slot. Not all parties can afford these.
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At the end of the day, the real question boils down to whether a demo may be created by vibe coding or not.
Feel free to provide an answer to that question.
If you find vibe coding fun go for it. But I don't find it fun at all, more like curiosity of how well it works. I tried it on the week and named all me private repos "Demon Coding vibe" or something, like these stuff are from demons :)
But really in the spirit of demoscene, I don't find the meaning of off-loading the main thing I enjoy crafting to some generator. Unless it's again an experiment for a wild demo.
But really in the spirit of demoscene, I don't find the meaning of off-loading the main thing I enjoy crafting to some generator. Unless it's again an experiment for a wild demo.
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Feel free to provide an answer to that question.
I'm not sure if I have a definitive opinion.
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- How would you validate the entries in the "real" categories?
- How could you tell if a "real" demo contains some vibe code?
- One more category translates to one more prize and an extra time slot. Not all parties can afford these.
This has a name. It’s “race to the bottom”.
I’d try to encourage people to be honest about their processes, make it a matter of common decency, a sorta “pirate code”, instead of playing gestapo sherlock, but I have to bear in mind that I had been found (unrealistically) too trusting (of human nature) in the past more than once.
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But really in the spirit of demoscene, I don't find the meaning of off-loading the main thing I enjoy crafting to some generator. Unless it's again an experiment for a wild demo.
This is exactly how I feel about this matter. However, I seem to have underestimated the number of people in the scene who see the creative process as a chore, and care exclusively about the end result, doing it all just for the applause.
the demos i want to see are the ones i make
that old murky orange/cncd style, also visualice x_x
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that old murky orange/cncd style, also visualice x_x
Black screens, dark smudgy VGA's... :)
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Quote:Which to be fucking honest, is why I stopped doing any more prods. I am fucking tired of being told of what is demoscene and what isn't.
I know that someone is edging to ban me for that take. But after 5 years of being absent, I truly don't give a fuck.
Whaa? Just ignore those telling what it is and what is not and do your own thing. You did great things IMHO.
Thanks, part of it I admit was paying more attention to glops, votes, etc. It is possible indeed to easily make a winner demo if you follow all the tropes, but if you make something truly artistic it seems that is outside the box, it seems to not be received as well.
I just wanted to make the demos I wanted to make. I know for a fact that I will never measure up to all the greatest hits, but as long to me as I improve, to me I am competing more with myself than anyone else. Which to me seems perfectly fine. I just wish I never made the mistake of listening so critically to takes on anything.
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However, I seem to have underestimated the number of people in the scene who see the creative process as a chore, and care exclusively about the end result, doing it all just for the applause.
That was my trap. I fell into never measuring up and so I completely stopped, when in reality I just should have measured up to previous stuff I did.
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Quote:However, I seem to have underestimated the number of people in the scene who see the creative process as a chore, and care exclusively about the end result, doing it all just for the applause.
That was my trap. I fell into never measuring up and so I completely stopped, when in reality I just should have measured up to previous stuff I did.
I understand this too, this was me back in '93. I lost my will to do tracks for a year because I measured to others, better than me. I should have just pushed more out, but the depression took me..