pouët.net

Care to elaborate what you mean by genuine? I think still today roughly one third of effort is ripping material, one third of the effort is work to divert attention from the ripping, one third of the effort is our own and putting data into our own context. If that's what you mean by "genuine", then we agree.
Traditionally we never cared about art, authenticity, copyright and such things. We took data where we pleased and gave credit if and when it suited us. Would it be "threatening" (and in how far?) if we continued to do what got our thing started? Sure you can change your ways, but couldn't it be the other way round, and the scene degrades into some traditionless random art-scene if it followed your advice?

there is nothing truly genuine in any art form, everything is influenced / derivative of everything else the creator was previously exposed to and trying to emulate / imitate.

if you see something that feels completely genuine, you just haven't recognized it's sources of inspiration yet. everything is a remix.

ripping is culturally / socially considered "lame" for it's low effort. when it's reused in smart and fresh ways people consider it "cool" instead.

exploring a trend in art scene creatively doesn't negate it's core scene prior tradition. there is no one single demoscene tradition. there are myriads of them, each person has their own vision of what it was / can be. it's up to you, as a creator to decide which to follow on your own productions. everyone else has their own opinion, that is only worth what it's worth.

I get the point about the myriad of traditions. But then, what remains is that even the reasoning about what can be considered a genuine production is futile not only because we have a myriad of ideas ourselves, but any other scene into which this one could develop into is a blender of influences as well, anyway. Topic closed already?
I would maybe add that if we set up codes and rules of what is considered 'genuine', this might strangle creativity. Leave an impression by making non-genuine productions before such a thing can even establish - and be it for the drama alone, planned or accidentally, there's a lot of fun to be had in this.

Just make your demos and let the lazy people talk about whether they are genuine or not.

everyone is free to set their own constraints and laud them as the best thing for the scene since the invention of sliced bread.

no one can force you to abide to them though, don't agree with the rules/ethos of a compo? send your production to party who accepts it. if there is none you can organize one. and if you can't be bothered you can still release outside the compo.

people can have whatever opinions they want. they are just that, their own opinions.

everyone is still free to do whatever demo they want.

and whoever disagrees with that can go make a demo about it aswell.

or have a good cry about it i guess :D that the demoscene is dead once more, because everyone else is "doing it wrong" but they are too lazy to show how it's done right anymore, or whatever else floats their bruised little scene messiah ego boat.

Just make your demos.

(Sorry, my last post was too long)

Genuine didn’t make that many productions unfortunately, I guess this is their best one.

I have a soft spot for “Wij Poepen Maar Wat Raak” as it was made at SiH 95 and I made some things for it.

"Thunder Feelings" was pretty cool too!

Heh @ the OP's division of the demomaking effort. =D

Some thoughts:
I think the AI stuff itself wouldn't "kill the scene" for me, but it's more like that you can spot the "midjourney style" (for example) a mile away and it's often just "boring" or common somehow. And at the same time, good productions will shine even if they were made using "ai" tools or not. Or use a lot of ripped content. (Or a game engine) :)

But as it is, everybody has their own opinions about what is boring. I also don't mean to say cheating is okay, and that's why we have comments to spot on copies etc. But I have to say that using current AI stuff doesn't really even feel like cheating anymore, because the style is somehow so easy to spot. I hope the future models will then label the training data so that they can provide loyalties fairly too. (yeah surely that'll happen)

And that idea or thought about parties having their own genuinity rules for their own competitions is good imo. Not everything should and needs to be fully standardized. I actually wonder how the current "standard set" of compos have came to be? Can a "family tree" be drawn? :D

let's discuss AI one more time with feeling!

"AI just hands us a mirror and says, ‘Look how small your sandbox really is.’ Turns out, the ‘human touch’ is just a fancy name for remixing our own limitations with extra self-congratulation." ChatGPT

We are just "diskuteering" until everybody's concerns are heard and discussed!

Ik weet vrij zeker dat dit eigenlijk gewoon exact het antwoord is op de gestelde vraag. Underrated dat Genuine.

What Okkie said but.. needs a proper url

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5425

Yes this is what I mean with genuine! We need more of that!



Well I agree that there could be a thing in the scene for both coders and graphicans that is: " Fake it untill you make it! " and for some people in the scene its the perfect start to just come in and make a throw up just to release something to start with, even if it is NOT a 100% genuine production that they have made all by them selves (and that doesn't necessary are all bad I think because you need to start with your scene magic wand somewhere and, nobody (or maybe somebody could, what could i now?) could not make a cool megademo/cool demo right from scratch if they don't have some hands on practice first and maybe for example: that newbie are using another scene magicans code in their production, just for learning proposal of course).

But some old school sceners who are already are established
don't need to just throw something up to get started, because they can make all the REAL and genuine work all by them selves! And those who are new in the scene and other more skilled art magicans in the scene need this old school scene hacker magicians for REAL and genuine inspiration and a throw up is not that inspiration they really need in my opinion.

So i mostly see a problem with a throw up if it's used by those scene magicans that can REALLY make a magical and cool demo if they just wanted to, but instead they chose to make a simple throw up with some stuff in their production that a random non scener have made, that give the wrong signal to the rest of the scene in my opinion.

But to be even more fair in the scene between the non genuine productions and the more Fake it untill you make it productions. Why not introduce to the scene a "Throw up compo"
where it ok to just throw something up even if it's not 100 genuine?!? for the newbies!

Next to the traditional compos like Amiga demo compo, C64 Compo and the Wild Compo or is it good to do like I have heard Assembly have done already that the Wild compo could be a AI production or whatever instead of the Throw up compo i suggested? In my opinion the Throw up compo would be better for the scene because the Wild Compo productions could be very serious (genuine) and very very well made and to mix that up with AI productions and throw ups gives the wrong signal to those who are serious in making a awesome Amiga wild compo demo with a cool graphics card like for example the Picasso IV card.

Are you implying that for people that already made their own code, framework, engines, etc...

That for every single prod to be "genuine", they must start entirely from scratch every single time, etc?
Is that what you want or implying?

I have heard that some people use existing computers and operating systems to run their demos. This is unacceptable. They should be designing their own custom hardware instead, and assembling it themselves out of handcarved transistors.

@Smaugur,
you could perhaps give us some definition or examples what you mean by genuine/real vs. faked, something which we can work with.
I have not always invented all the effects I have coded, or read the available papers. To the contrary, especially when I started, I sometimes ripped code without fully understanding it, played around with it until its origins were not obvious anymore, but still I have put things into my own context, and that's more than enough for me to call something genuine or real! The same should apply to gfx and music and other professions.
I like the immediate approach, punk and DIY spirit very much. I like montage and collage, and meanings inverted and turned upside down. Not genuine?
Take stuff that you like, modify it, make something from it. With digital material, nobody gets robbed or hurt. With regard to AI, if you develop only a minimum of taste and senses, the unmodified stuff reeks 10 kilometers against the wind and is easily recognized (for lack of excitement). But you can still mess and muck around with it and turn it into something different and new, even if the level of added value may not always be very high, or easily recognizable.

And that sounds like exactly what it is. So if you are a coder, you cannot *use your own code that you built up to work over time* for your particular platform of choice.

To be truly "genuine", as a prod, would mean starting from zero. Every single time.

Make your stuff and have fun!

Pretty sure many people did and do just that on the olden 8-bit (and some 16-bit) platforms. =)

No not start from zero of course that would be too time consuming, hmm when it comes to code there have to be some anarchy with the production what i understand because that information have to be free to be able to involve to something even greater, exactly like this thread! ;)

But when it comes to Graphics there is no need for the same anarchy like when you are coding, So I think my genuine idea or hypothesis for productions in a special Throw up compo could maybe apply on the Graphican instead?.

Or what do you think about that?

That's where the AI graphics generators destroys the scene right now in my opinion, So a Throw up compo for productions with AI graphics and non genuine demos/intros with AI graphics and non genuine graphics when you have for example scanned a picture and are pixeling above the original one, could that be the solution? Or should the scene be all Anarchy ???