AI crap in compo entries?
category: general [glöplog]
4gent: you hit the nail on the hat. so sad to see this ignorance.
*head
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Dont mistake AI for another tool. This tool removes the artist. This has never happened before.
Hm.. historically, other tools "removed the programmer". The winning demo from Revision - regardless of how good or bad it was, was written on Notch. It was clear to see that the effects used have been recycled many times before and have been around in Flt / Cocoon demos for at least a decade.
From what I know of Notch, it could have been a case of clickedy-click without a programmer in sight. I personally have zero problem with that and I applaud good unity/unreal/notch productions - and this was a very good one and worthy winner.
Isn't it the same when the shoe is on the other foot? it takes some "clickedy click" skills to make these "AI images" and incorporate in some sort of production in the same way it does for a full blown demo with unity - when other programmers have spent countless hours putting together the "effect" - for which the production is nothing without.
A demo with just some AI images will suck just like a mindless notch production that is just a reel of what the notch programmers can do. In both cases - why do it ? But let the crowd decide.
Again, this is not a statement about the strict "legality" of doing either, this is a different matter.
I'm somewhat doubting some people's claims that they enjoy doing thing X because of its inherent value in itself, then somehow want to stop doing that same enjoyable thing because of some external thing.
@Navis
So, visual programming (connecting nodes, writing expressions into them) is not programming? OK. Should people also sport only command line OS?
Why are you comparing prompt-to-image LLM AIs to a tool (like Notch)? The inventors and owners themselves are telling you something else. I’m not familiar with Notch, does it have a prompt where I can type: “write me a demo” and it will deliver?
And btw I do understand the point of view about the shoe and other foot. Although it comes off as slightly malicious. For example I’m personally against paint programs that churn out exec files. If I want to show a gfx I made, I write my own displayer. Or if I couldn’t , I’d ask a coder friend to help me out. But it’s strictly personal opinion and I’d never try to sugest everyone should do so.
So, visual programming (connecting nodes, writing expressions into them) is not programming? OK. Should people also sport only command line OS?
Why are you comparing prompt-to-image LLM AIs to a tool (like Notch)? The inventors and owners themselves are telling you something else. I’m not familiar with Notch, does it have a prompt where I can type: “write me a demo” and it will deliver?
And btw I do understand the point of view about the shoe and other foot. Although it comes off as slightly malicious. For example I’m personally against paint programs that churn out exec files. If I want to show a gfx I made, I write my own displayer. Or if I couldn’t , I’d ask a coder friend to help me out. But it’s strictly personal opinion and I’d never try to sugest everyone should do so.
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I'm somewhat doubting some people's claims that they enjoy doing thing X because of its inherent value in itself, then somehow want to stop doing that same enjoyable thing because of some external thing.
If I quit doing demoscene related art, or even digital art in general, I will still continue doing traditional art.
people that don't see the difference between an LLM and a demo tool are weird. Like, if I make a demo in Notch, I'm not generating a whole demo of stolen content with one prompt.
I still get coders being miffed about demotools or game engines being used, but that still needs 'craft' as bifat puts it. There is nog 'generate demo' button in these tools and people that think that should try one.
Generating art with LLMs only needs some words, it's the absolute anti-thesis of creativity _and_ craft.
but yeah, this thread is just reiterating over and over what people think. In the end i'll thumb down every piece of garbage AI art i'll see, like some coder might thumb down demos made in a commercial editor. But even then, those two are not the same.
Sarge, Steffest, neoman and other gfx artists comments are breaking my heart tho, please keep pixeling, most people really do prefer that!
I still get coders being miffed about demotools or game engines being used, but that still needs 'craft' as bifat puts it. There is nog 'generate demo' button in these tools and people that think that should try one.
Generating art with LLMs only needs some words, it's the absolute anti-thesis of creativity _and_ craft.
but yeah, this thread is just reiterating over and over what people think. In the end i'll thumb down every piece of garbage AI art i'll see, like some coder might thumb down demos made in a commercial editor. But even then, those two are not the same.
Sarge, Steffest, neoman and other gfx artists comments are breaking my heart tho, please keep pixeling, most people really do prefer that!
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On the consumer side, probably all of them. =)please keep pixeling, most people really do prefer that!
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@Navis
So, visual programming (connecting nodes, writing expressions into them) is not programming? OK. Should people also sport only command line OS?.
In all fairness, and while there are many levels of "visual programming", for most parts I would not consider it "programming" but rather sequencing. Programming is what smash and co. did over decades so that Notch sports a "give me motion blur" or "color grading" button that you can drag and drop, and voila your scene looks 90% better than all other fools that do it themselves from almost nothing. In this brave new world, who needs programmers when you can get a licence for Unreal or Notch, right?
As a fool, do I complain? no, let anyone do whatever they want.
But lets put things into perspective. The discussion is about the worst possible offence, which seems to be the amiga demo - page after page of LLM images.
It is, however, a spectrum, just like "visual programming" vs "proper shader/C++ programming" is:
I have used AI since inception for inpainting, for style transfer, for feedback for depth sensing, for compression and skeleton/3D mapping. Where do you draw the line? even an LLM system might have a slider that tells you how far away for a given (yours) image it should go. At the end it might return something with 99% of your original pixels PLUS some fill-ins, inferred by training. Is that a crime as well?
If it is, let us know so we establish a base for what is legal or not in the future.
isn't that exactly the problem? Or did you guys _want_ all the down thumbs?
I don't know anymore really, people love to quibble about this shit forever and i think we're not going to convince anyone anymore.
especially for all of you i generated some angry old nerds fighting over old computers
I don't know anymore really, people love to quibble about this shit forever and i think we're not going to convince anyone anymore.
especially for all of you i generated some angry old nerds fighting over old computers
What's happening with that guy in the blue sweater? IS IT AI?!
well, count the fingers to know if it is AI
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See https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=96624 for a lot more explanation than warranted already.Or did you guys _want_ all the down thumbs?
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i can tell you from personal experience that I enjoy procedural graphics coding a LOT and got pretty far into it, but that the NFT craze turned me off it completely, entirely due to external factors. my enjoyment of the process was tainted by the association of the generative graphics with a ecosystem of fraud that i found repulsive. i felt dirty working on something i used to love, and i haven't forgiven the cryptobros for that.I'm somewhat doubting some people's claims that they enjoy doing thing X because of its inherent value in itself, then somehow want to stop doing that same enjoyable thing because of some external thing.
Oh look okkie made Toxic Modulo 3! I gotta admit, the story is way better than in TM 2.
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i can tell you from personal experience that I enjoy procedural graphics coding a LOT and got pretty far into it, but that the NFT craze turned me off it completely, entirely due to external factors. my enjoyment of the process was tainted by the association of the generative graphics with a ecosystem of fraud that i found repulsive. i felt dirty working on something i used to love, and i haven't forgiven the cryptobros for that.
Oh that sucks man. I know the feeling.
There was a guy here in the forum that was proposing/celebrating both NFTs and LLM AIs, all in one go. I was like wha, why not add explosives and heroin.
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See https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=96624 for a lot more explanation than warranted already.
What surprises me is that it got 20+ thumbups.
I guess it got them on merit of compression/display tech which I know next to nothing about.
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Time to raid with a posse for massive counterthumbing! :DWhat surprises me is that it got 20+ thumbups.
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There was a guy here in the forum that was proposing/celebrating both NFTs and LLM AIs, all in one go. I was like wha, why not add explosives and heroin.
The venn diagram of people that advocates for NFT:s and people that advocates for LLM AIs is almost a circle.
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Time to raid with a posse for massive counterthumbing! :D
Very soon this will be a trivial task thanks to LLM AI. a million thumbdowns at a prompt/push of a button. Plus a 100 websites with hundreds of forums with thousands of fake people discussing. Tailored to support my case. All at the push of a button. In a few hours.
But we should go to that shithole dystopia because boys like to play, and how dare we suggest they’re playing with fire, with people’s livelihoods.
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What surprises me is that it got 20+ thumbups.
@ham:
The big thumbup fell from the sky and smashed little thumbdowns, sent one spinning. Wow, your single post has more meat, more coherent and believable story than TM2 ;-)
The big thumbup fell from the sky and smashed little thumbdowns, sent one spinning. Wow, your single post has more meat, more coherent and believable story than TM2 ;-)
And a wordless post at that.
@4gentE:
Hurry, go and make a demo about it! :]
Hurry, go and make a demo about it! :]
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For your unprovoked personal vendetta, send fanmail to the address Greippi has posted. =)Wow, your single post has more meat, more coherent and believable story than TM2 ;-)