and..justice for all!
category: offtopic [glöplog]
a simple question: why do women get paid ~17% less than men for doing the same work ?
this is apparently true across the board / all professions.
A good article written by Alyssa Mercante: Dear Video Game Industry, Please Name A Woman
I'm still on holiday and reflecting / educating myself about a couple of things and what I've seen (and some of it was quite shocking!) is the SW-engineering equivalent to a _long_ list of "build errors" that need to be addressed, one by one. ASAP!
And please don't get me wrong: I am not advocating "quotas", just fair treatment. This is not the dark ages anymore, FFS.
this is apparently true across the board / all professions.
A good article written by Alyssa Mercante: Dear Video Game Industry, Please Name A Woman
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I challenge men in the industry to do the same, loudly, until our existence is no longer up for debate or discussion
I'm still on holiday and reflecting / educating myself about a couple of things and what I've seen (and some of it was quite shocking!) is the SW-engineering equivalent to a _long_ list of "build errors" that need to be addressed, one by one. ASAP!
And please don't get me wrong: I am not advocating "quotas", just fair treatment. This is not the dark ages anymore, FFS.
obvious bait.
baiting you into what ? a fair game ? if that's the case I'm guilty as charged.
but let me elaborate my understanding of the situation:
In the hay days of video game (and demo) development, this used to be the realm of "elite geeks".
Nowadays it is a multi-billion dollar industry (just for perspective: the most expensive game so far costed ~700mio$).
The tech behind it is not fringe science anymore which allowed the main focus to shift to "content".
That's a lot of work that requires a lot of staff.
And this staff deserves a proper working environment. Simple as that.
but let me elaborate my understanding of the situation:
In the hay days of video game (and demo) development, this used to be the realm of "elite geeks".
Nowadays it is a multi-billion dollar industry (just for perspective: the most expensive game so far costed ~700mio$).
The tech behind it is not fringe science anymore which allowed the main focus to shift to "content".
That's a lot of work that requires a lot of staff.
And this staff deserves a proper working environment. Simple as that.
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obvious bait.
a metallica bait, no less! was disappointed..
picked it since they got the "Lady Justice" topic quite right
you're confusing pouet with your reddit page again
Remind me again how the demoscene is a multi-billion dollar industry? I must have missed the memo.
As for game development (or any other for profit enterprise for that matter - which the demoscene is not), while these issues are real do you really think this is the most optimal forum to discuss this issue? (Or to put it in other words... what maali said.)
As for game development (or any other for profit enterprise for that matter - which the demoscene is not), while these issues are real do you really think this is the most optimal forum to discuss this issue? (Or to put it in other words... what maali said.)
This is a broader issue that does not just affect a particular industry.
But I am not really surprised by the reactions because that is the tenor of what I've read so far regarding this topic.
I asked a "simple question" but instead of an answer I got flak and excuses.
How hard would it be to say "jep, figures, change request accepted, all done" ;-)
But I am not really surprised by the reactions because that is the tenor of what I've read so far regarding this topic.
I asked a "simple question" but instead of an answer I got flak and excuses.
How hard would it be to say "jep, figures, change request accepted, all done" ;-)
JUSTICE IS LOST
JUSTICE IS RAPED
JUSTICE IS GONE
JUSTICE IS RAPED
JUSTICE IS GONE
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a simple question: why do women get paid ~17% less than men for doing the same work ? this is apparently true across the board / all professions.
I don't know about other countries but in my whereabouts ~20 % wage gap myth was debunked by pointing out the gender difference between actual hours worked. There are nevertheless gender wage gaps (ie. women tend to work in less well paid public sector jobs, motherhood makes a solid career more difficult etc.) but not a general wage gap of a given magnitude.
I heartily endorse this event or product!
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There are nevertheless gender wage gaps (ie. women tend to work in less well paid public sector jobs, motherhood makes a solid career more difficult etc.) but not a general wage gap of a given magnitude.
Yes, there absolutely is one, just not 17%. Here are the current stats from .de (source: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Earnings/GenderPayGap/_node.html)
Adjusted (for same job): 6%
Unadjusted (different jobs): 18%
Overall earnings (includes hours and unemployment): A whopping 39%
Can we please stop talking about "myths" that have been "debunked" just because it's a tiny bit inconvenient to fucking google? Thanks.
Gender pay gap (destatis.de / German Federal Statistical Office)
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Women earn 18% less
Women earned on average 18% less per hour than men in 2022. The differences in western Germany (and Berlin), amounting to 19%, were markedly larger than those in the eastern part of Germany (7%).
besides: this is not just about numbers and statistics but rather about appreciation and fair dealings.
the horrors I learned while digging a little bit deeper into this are absolutely devastating.
drugged ? raped ? worked to near death / hospitalization ? kaneel was not off the mark here.
the horrors I learned while digging a little bit deeper into this are absolutely devastating.
drugged ? raped ? worked to near death / hospitalization ? kaneel was not off the mark here.
feels like it's time for a change
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(don't even try to google it, there are 0 results)Changes were always initiated by a few.
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this is not just about numbers and statistics
Well, of course this is a discussion based entirely on statistics.
Also notice the url kb linked, where you can find a clearer explanation how those numbers work, and why your numerical value of ~17% for the unadjusted gender pay gap is not a suitable metric.
This thread makes me lose IQ, honestly. Yes, there is a problem, but you do not increase the chance of it ever getting solved by picking the most misleading (and overabstracted) statistical analysis of the available data with, coincidentally, the highest numerical result and then starting an emotional discussion about it in a demoscene forum.
... and I got baited, congrats.
There's no escape from the fact that the opening sentence on this thread was wrong. Also I myself probably wrongly emphasized hour adjustment, while job adjustment in stats is more significant (I was actually referring to another country but it seems to be the same story in this respect).
One of the challenges in closing the pay gap is that women don't care about wage considerations so much while planning their careers. How are we going to change that?
Also, economic development seems to have just increased women's preference in less well paid jobs (this is reflected in that East vs. West Germany stat).
One of the challenges in closing the pay gap is that women don't care about wage considerations so much while planning their careers. How are we going to change that?
Also, economic development seems to have just increased women's preference in less well paid jobs (this is reflected in that East vs. West Germany stat).
first of all, sorry for mentioning this very extreme situation, it's not normal but got me quite shaken when I read her story.
@la_mettrie: "he said 17% but it's actually 18%, see how he fundamentally wrong he is". is that what you are saying ? (not really, right)
@kb made a good point regarding the "same" / "different" job adjustment issue but if we stick to a particular field of employment (SW engineering), what do you think of this: Report reveals gender pay gap of 31% among experienced software engineers
@la_mettrie: "he said 17% but it's actually 18%, see how he fundamentally wrong he is". is that what you are saying ? (not really, right)
@kb made a good point regarding the "same" / "different" job adjustment issue but if we stick to a particular field of employment (SW engineering), what do you think of this: Report reveals gender pay gap of 31% among experienced software engineers
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However, as levels of experience increase, so does the pay gap, with female employees of six to 10 years experience still facing a 31% pay disparity.
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"he said 17% but it's actually 18%, see how he fundamentally wrong he is". is that what you are saying ? (not really, right)
You mentioned ~17 % gap "for doing the same work" while the data mentioned in _kb's message gave 6 % for that (in Germany)
ok, granted, by "same work" I was merely thinking of people collaborating in the same line of work.
and details aside: There, undeniably, is a divide. The question is: Why ?
(and heh, the more I think about this the much bigger question is: why do we suck so much at project management ? all big tasks can be split into many smaller ones. when you fail at that and assign too large tasks to your people, they will either go in overdrive mode or fail and the conclusion that those who fail in that scenario "are underperformers" is just plain wrong)
Make Demo Make Demo
Demo Demo Make Make
Make About it Make About it
About it About it Make Make
Demo Demo Make Make
Make About it Make About it
About it About it Make Make
