What is the sense of fantasy computers?
category: general [glöplog]
I'm not sure if I would call pico-8 a platform. Seems more like a multimedia library for lua to me.
Or why would it be a fantasy platform anymore than for example python with pyglet?
I guess "platform" is a very flexible word in that regard as it can be interpreted as a platform for development or a platform for launching programs.
Is AMOS a fantasy platform?
Or why would it be a fantasy platform anymore than for example python with pyglet?
I guess "platform" is a very flexible word in that regard as it can be interpreted as a platform for development or a platform for launching programs.
Is AMOS a fantasy platform?
platform: has an abi & specific peripherals. usually comes with a cross compiler so you can develop on x86 hosts.
library: compile it on any platform it supports.
this thread: fantasy console bashing. pico8 is a valid platform, as is linux. you wouldn't argue that , would you?
library: compile it on any platform it supports.
this thread: fantasy console bashing. pico8 is a valid platform, as is linux. you wouldn't argue that , would you?
I'd argue that pico8 is more of a platform than linux.
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antasy platforms have assembler? Logically, even if it is a virtual fictitious platform, it must have the architecture of the CPU, video subsystem, and other peripheral devices. And obviously, such a device should have its own assembler?
the most famous ones (pico-8 and tic80) do not. and part of the charm is being able to use higher level languages directly with decent performance.
but some do. i guess ibniz is the more demoscene-related close example of that. i'm sure there are others with more traditional assembler opcodes, there are many obscure fantasy consoles out there being developed.
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pico8 is a valid platform, as is linux. you wouldn't argue that , would you?
1. Pico-8 can be run without linux (windows and other OS)"?
2. Is it possible to run linux on pico-8?
P.S.: Still, Linux is not a platform, it's an operating system.
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1. Pico-8 can be run without linux (windows and other OS)"?
yes
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2. Is it possible to run linux on pico-8?
lol, not at the moment, but i've seen linux running on a c64 so maybe someone will take on the challenge. :D
but to answer seriously: no, i don't think you can make it run linux without some serious changes to the core of the fantasy console.
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Quote:1. Pico-8 can be run without linux (windows and other OS)"?
yes
Do you mean Raspberry Pi?
But can this be done on a clean device? Where Raspberry Pi OS is not installed (which is based on Debian Linux)?
pico-8 can be run in linux and on other OS's aswell, i don't understand your question.
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P.S.: Still, Linux is not a platform, it's an operating system.
It has a specific ABI (ELF).
There are specific peripherals.
There are cross-compilers for ELF abi and x86 / amd64 instruction sets (for example nasm).
=> It matches all criteria from my Definition of "platform", that's why I called it that.
You're right, linux is also an OS, but one that is also a platform imo.
If you think, my definition should be different, then how would you change it?
i guess you're asking if it has it's own operating system that can run a machine by itself. no, it doesn't.
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It has a specific ABI (ELF).
There are specific peripherals.
There are cross-compilers for ELF abi and x86 / amd64 instruction sets (for example nasm).
So? It's still the same hardware as any other PC unless you're talking about running it on a supercomputer or something in which case the platform is not Linux either, but the said supercomputer. There's nothing particularly interesting or unique about it, unless you take all the usual sound issues and crap driver support and internet fights about free software that come along with it.
Pico-8 on the other hand is something that has a distinct set of (simulated) hardware that does a distinct set of things.
hm, might be my definition is maybe crap
Wikipedia has a different one, that still allows linux to be a platform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computing_platform
Wikipedia has a different one, that still allows linux to be a platform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computing_platform
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A computing platform or digital platform[1] or software platform is an environment in which a piece of software is executed. It may be the hardware or the operating system (OS), even a web browser and associated application programming interfaces, or other underlying software, as long as the program code is executed with it.
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Quote:2. Is it possible to run linux on pico-8?
lol, not at the moment, but i've seen linux running on a c64 so maybe someone will take on the challenge. :D
but to answer seriously: no, i don't think you can make it run linux without some serious changes to the core of the fantasy console.
Both the C64 and the 8-bit AVR linux implementations were done by emulating an ARM processor so that should be possible on pico-8.
tldp.org says that you can get the kernel running on 2 MB of memory so you might be able to use the lua variable space for memory to the kernel or you can do like the AVR version and hook up a larger memory module on the GPIO-pins that pico-8 supports.
You also need somewhere to store the linux system so if you don't want to load the kernel by clocking in the bits via the controller you also need to wire in an SD-card or something.
Sorry for stating the obvious, but.... When I watch a demo, knowing the platform helps me understand how much effort and skill was put in the prod'. Even when I watch it on Youtube, the very same experience (say, for example A 60 FPS mapped cube) will impress me on Amiga, and not at all on PC. Some of us still care about the technical effort even if the "artistic output experience" is exactly the same. In that sense, Pico8 is a platform to me, as it's a set of constraints. You could argue that if it's only a set of constraints it's more a category (like 4k demos) than a platform, but as these constraints lead to a very recognisable style / signature (the palette, the sounds), I would go for a platform.
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Pico8 is a platform to me, as it's a set of constraints. You could argue that if it's only a set of constraints it's more a category (like 4k demos) than a platform, but as these constraints lead to a very recognisable style / signature (the palette, the sounds), I would go for a platform.
I strongly second the "recognisable style".
Also, although there are feature enhancements from time to time, Pico8 is a very well defined sandbox in the sense that "my Pico8" is just like "your Pico8" - and if I can manage to draw 10 sprites more, then it's directly comparable and one is arguably better than the other.
And in that regard it's very much like programming on a C64 or Amiga500 back in the days.
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Quote:Quote:1. Pico-8 can be run without linux (windows and other OS)"?
yes
Do you mean Raspberry Pi?
But can this be done on a clean device? Where Raspberry Pi OS is not installed (which is based on Debian Linux)?
There's baremetal builds of TIC-80 i.e. without any operating system underneath https://github.com/nesbox/TIC-80/blob/main/build/baremetalpi/README.md
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There's baremetal builds of TIC-80 i.e. without any operating system underneath https://github.com/nesbox/TIC-80/blob/main/build/baremetalpi/README.md
now this is interesting
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Pico8 is a very well defined sandbox in the sense that "my Pico8" is just like "your Pico8"
Only if you're using the same versions of Pico-8 though, something made with an older version isn't necessarily comparable to something made with a newer version.
I think of it like speedrunning - this varies per game, of course, but usually in speedrunning you can use any version of a game, but it has to be an official release version and it can't be modded in any significant way. Which version lets you finish the game the quickest isn't necessarily clear-cut, but it's still something of a baseline.
A later version of PICO-8 broke some of the coroutine tricks I used for precalc in Puroresu no Seishin, meaning that some data doesn't get precalculated by the time it's needed. This makes me wonder that perhaps the optimal version for PICO-8 demo development isn't necessarily always the latest one.
A later version of PICO-8 broke some of the coroutine tricks I used for precalc in Puroresu no Seishin, meaning that some data doesn't get precalculated by the time it's needed. This makes me wonder that perhaps the optimal version for PICO-8 demo development isn't necessarily always the latest one.
Yeah I like you can knock stuff out in pico-8's command set or go a bit lower-level with a fixed memory map that doesn't have any restrictions for you messing around with it. It's nice if you don't feel like working on hardware timing critical stuff that you can still get a feel for it in your production somewhere. The pico-8/tic-80 has done good work for demoscene outreach too I think.
that is a real nice fantasy console, based on a 6502 ... unfortunately most fantasy consoles don't support programming in assembly ...
Minicube64
Minicube64
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unfortunately most fantasy consoles don't support programming in assembly ...
I feel that might be because people want to create things with restrictions without the tedium of writing asm.
https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=95078
So... Here we have an example of "combined 512b compo when using a fantasy console" problem.
We have a 512b demo that actually requires an additional 17k "player".
And it's a winner. Is that fair?
So... Here we have an example of "combined 512b compo when using a fantasy console" problem.
We have a 512b demo that actually requires an additional 17k "player".
And it's a winner. Is that fair?
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https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=95078
So... Here we have an example of "combined 512b compo when using a fantasy console" problem.
We have a 512b demo that actually requires an additional 17k "player".
And it's a winner. Is that fair?
The only problem I can see is that MicroW8 uses compressed executables.
