Kitsch on the scene?
category: general [glöplog]
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Because the first of anything cannot rely purely on established conventions?
The definition provided doesn't say "purely", and "3D graphics with music" was established outside the scene before it could be done well in real time.
argh
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And i think the demoscene tends to add another layer of complexity with the technical context, which makes it less kitsch in my opinion.
Similarly garden gnomes become real pieces of art if we add motor to them?
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When i tried to explain the demoscene to my sisters they said it looked like kitsch to them
One (rather obvious?) way to argue against demoscene being kitsch might be to point out that a lot of visuals are pretty abstract of their nature which seems to go against the definition of kitsch.
Though the situation may look worse if we consider standalone graphics compo entries instead of actual demos.
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Faux oldschool stuff.
Can you elaborate?
Basically, almost all demoscene productions could be classified as kitsch.
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Quote:And i think the demoscene tends to add another layer of complexity with the technical context, which makes it less kitsch in my opinion.
Similarly garden gnomes become real pieces of art if we add motor to them?
I think he/she perhaps meant that technical aspect of the artifact puts it in (some) context. Lack of context is one of the things that constitutes kitsch IMHO.
Here’s from the provided definition of kitsch:
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the focus is on surface appearance and immediate visual impact
The focus of a demo could be on a technical feat, on conquering new ground, on abusing the hardware in a way that the hardware designer never intended it. In which case the observer has to be sufficiently educated to be able to really appreciate it. In other words, the observer cannot make a sound judgement of such artefact solely on visual merit or “immediate visual impact” if you will.
Or, to go back to the garden gnome analogy. What if the gnome was made out of repurposed candle wax and without using hands, if it was sculpted using feet and mouth only. Still not art? Or? What if it wasn’t a gnome but a can of Campbell soup?
I asked:
And got the answer:
Exactly @Frost.
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What’s kitsch in the demoscene? Nearly all of it?
And got the answer:
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Basically, almost all demoscene productions could be classified as kitsch.
Exactly @Frost.
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What’s kitsch in the demoscene? Nearly all of it?
Aren't a vast legion of demoscene products something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOC7L91CxyU (ASTRA by p01 / ribbon)
It's another matter whether that's good or bad in terms of art but the definition of kitsch doesn't quite seem to fit.
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The focus of a demo could be on a technical feat, on conquering new ground, on abusing the hardware in a way that the hardware designer never intended it. In which case the observer has to be sufficiently educated to be able to really appreciate it. In other words, the observer cannot make a sound judgement of such artefact solely on visual merit or “immediate visual impact” if you will.
Hmm, it seems kitsch is discussed in the context of architecture and yet also architecture has more than meets the eye like demos, right? It seems that it's the visual aspect of the building that is judged in this context.
So we might have to open a wider question about the role of technique in the evaluation of art.
Hmm... I guess quite many people actually consider demo's technical and aesthetic aspects separately.
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What if it wasn’t a gnome but a can of Campbell soup?
I think 'Campbell soup' piece is supposed to have some kind of conceptual idea behind it. This gives us a third aspect in addition to aesthetics and technique. However, this aspect may be rather absent in the demoscene ...Well, at least some demos have a political message like so many pieces of contemporary art. But was it also absent in the pre-20th century art?
@la_mettrie : I was wondering (I asked this before, but nobody answered).
What do you think?
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https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=94784
Is this kitsch?
What do you think?
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Is this kitsch?
(this = "The Legend of Sisyphus")
The coverage of my experience in modern (popularish) visuals is probably seriously lacking so I'm far from the best critic here. But if I have to answer, I wouldn't say yes.
Some material or aspects in the product may hint towards comfortable music video aesthetics but then many visuals seem rather abstract and/or coarse to me.
That the work has a concept behind it which is represented in far from obvious manner (watch the compostudio...) seems clearly imply that it has something meaningful beneath the surface, possibly even strong symbolism? This may be rather unusual in the demoscene..? All this is sort of antithetical to the idea of kitsch. The context of dramatic myth itself might make a difference here.
(I didn't pay attention to the technical aspect here, just audiovisuals and the conceptual side)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0HHXgGYSOA (compostudio, start watching at 26:00)
@la_mettrie:
Fair enough.
I must say that I failed to "read" the story by just watching the demo, without the author's explanation. However, since so many people seem to be able to read and understand/appreciate it, I guess it's my own perception devices that are lacking, not the actual presentation/storytelling itself.
Fair enough.
I must say that I failed to "read" the story by just watching the demo, without the author's explanation. However, since so many people seem to be able to read and understand/appreciate it, I guess it's my own perception devices that are lacking, not the actual presentation/storytelling itself.
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"I must say that I failed to "read" the story by just watching the demo, without the author's explanation. However, since so many people seem to be able to read and understand/appreciate it, I guess it's my own perception devices that are lacking, not the actual presentation/storytelling itself."
I'm not sure if most people actually could follow it (at least I couldn't (and truck couldn't) though I have serious issues with attentiveness anyway).
This takes us to yet another set of big questions like what is the importance of the symbolical level and storyline in a piece of art and how they should affect the experience of watcher etc.
(I once tried what ChatGPT says about watching Godard and it suggested concentrating on feeling and atmosphere instead of trying to force oneself to immediately understand the symbolical level and multilayered meanings ...not necessarily a bad advice)
I also wouldn't trust so strongly the reaction of the audience. Initial reception and latter reputation of artworks have often been rather different and there's nothing wrong in disagreeing with others.
Hieno kysy,ys Franz. Vittuun kaikki "AI"
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Hieno kysy,ys Franz. Vittuun kaikki "AI"
Gfxte dkdgdhdn vdgdiomsfsjskrtbdkd bdtdjdmfsrd!!!
Kitschige Bildschirmschoner in 4K.
<3
<3
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Quote:https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=94784
Is this kitsch?
What do you think?
IMHO this and many other top demos are pure kitsch, at least in a classically trained cultural absolutist point of view. Overly flashy, excessive, "in your face", crude, etc...
The fact this particular demo has more glitches than others doesn't really help.
But the real question is, even if it is, why even judge it this way?
Does authors really want to be critically acclaimed in high-art circles? I thought usual aspirations are to win the compo and/or reclaim demoscene "celebrity" status.
I have very long background in art direction and motion design and although i would say 95% of scene prods are kitschy indeed, especially nowadays when artists don't participate in demomaking much, later ASD stuff is indeed made the way it is for a reason and too crafty and weird to be in that class.
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Do you think that the concept of kitsch can be reasonably applied to demoscene products?
Not much, or no.
Better stop putting the ideas and "philosophy" where there is none (or not much) and use one's time differently and more productively.
But, well, ppl like to add the meaning to sth. Also to feel better...
Have a nice day.
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But the real question is, even if it is, why even judge it this way?
Does authors really want to be critically acclaimed in high-art circles? I thought usual aspirations are to win the compo and/or reclaim demoscene "celebrity" status.
For the sake of practicing aesthetics (the philosophy of art) itself and in order to gain better theoretical understanding of what demos are.
Neither garden gnomes are supposed to win the critical acclaim in art circles but the concept of kitsch is applied to them.
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I have very long background in art direction and motion design and although i would say 95% of scene prods are kitschy indeed, especially nowadays when artists don't participate in demomaking much
Maybe paradoxically when artists are left to their own in graphics compos, it seems they tend to produce more kitschy products, using simple feelgood subject matters and styles relying on more traditional representation.
I realized that kitsch seems to be more subjective concept than what I previously thought. When looking at the definitions of kitsch, it may suggest that it's easy to avoid making kitsch: just aim to some originality and/or use the abstract style. But then many seem to apply the concept in a manner that only few their preferred styles or only the most progressive art is not kitsch.
If somebody thinks almost everything in the scene is kitsch, hopefully they have thought it seriously then what is not kitsch for them. Easier approach to the discussion may be to focus on qualities that are usually considered as kitschy.
If somebody thinks almost everything in the scene is kitsch, hopefully they have thought it seriously then what is not kitsch for them. Easier approach to the discussion may be to focus on qualities that are usually considered as kitschy.
The aim of the author has nothing to do with whether something is kitsch. Plus, I wouldn’t dare to speak in author’s name. Most demoscene demos are pure kitsch, some strive to be something else, some succeed in that, some are happy being exactly what they are. And I wouldn’t use the term “judge it this way”. It’s clumsy and misleading. Unless by “judging it this way” you meant “stating what you perceive as fact”. Something being or not being kitsch does not diminish its scene value. Or some other value. Demoscene is more akin to folk craft than art anyway. People here tend to shout “great art” when they like something, not really bothering with the meaning of “art”. Almost nobody shouts “great craft”. Or “great high quality kitsch” for that matter. Although this would be much closer to the truth. I guess that’s why you feel that calling something, some artifact of value and quality “kitsch” is insulting to the said artifact. “Judging it that way.”
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the philosophy of art
la_mettrie: as I understand that "philosophy" of kitsch/not kitsch spread during the times when society was divided into classes as a tool to justify the division (in some parts of the world still is, but also to some people in western world). Upper class wanted to be perceived as more refined, educated, with subtle, selective taste rooted more in intellectual and allegorical understanding as opposed to lower instincts, while lower class was just going with crude emotions, resulting in the art that is simpler, but more lively and fun.
But this is very old tale, so if someone still gives a fuck, he has a Stockholm syndrome of sort.