So, how dead is it?
category: general [glöplog]
also this is a matter of taste... i'd rather watch a mediocre looking PC demo than your "art of code"-contribution on the Amiga that renders 2 bobs more than Kefrens in 1993 because after all, they're still bobs
Quote:
My point is: Ask your recruiter how hard it was to find those kind of people.
Not easy, for sure. My point was that the scene is not necessary to grow those skills, and if the goal is to increase the level of those skills in the general populace, there has to be easier sells than trying to get young people interested in what basically amounts to what the HAM radio community was for us when we were young.
Sure, some will pick it up, just like there are still some young people who are interested in HAM radio. But it's an aging, anachronistic niche community, and while it does help its participants develop some pretty useful skills, it's not where a forward-looking industry will be looking to recruit.
Quote:
plus ZX has a faster CPU.
Don't get fooled by the MHZs, it's not that faster.
The Z80 is more complex than the 6502 & is extremely slow to decode it's instructions.
Quote:
Not true; TIC-80 literally runs on host-speed.
I didn't know that. I (for some reason) thought TIC-80 demos run the same on almost any PC.
So demoscene is no longer what demosceners want it to be, but it's a relic of the past chasing it's own shadow.
Look at the latest ASD demo and "demoscene purists" complains about the file size. I was the once one of them complainers, but I reflected on "other sides arguments" and I've changed my mind. Why limit yourself to file size at all? Maybe it's a relic of the past! Also, if PC demoscene wants to be more artistic, and just use rreal-time graphics as a medium, a statement, a form of expression, let it be.
Of course there is a balance, where you still want to retain some identity, but I have impression that new ideas are dismissed way too often.
Look at the latest ASD demo and "demoscene purists" complains about the file size. I was the once one of them complainers, but I reflected on "other sides arguments" and I've changed my mind. Why limit yourself to file size at all? Maybe it's a relic of the past! Also, if PC demoscene wants to be more artistic, and just use rreal-time graphics as a medium, a statement, a form of expression, let it be.
Of course there is a balance, where you still want to retain some identity, but I have impression that new ideas are dismissed way too often.
Quote:
Don't get fooled by the MHZs, it's not that faster.
The Z80 is more complex than the 6502 & is extremely slow to decode it's instructions.
I know that as far as Z80 vs 6502 is concerned. They are very similar (true) speed wise.
However, I mentioned bitmap plotters on a C64 and ZX specifically. As far as I know, C64 has to work more than ZX to run a simple bitmap plotter due to how its video memory is mapped. Same goes for vector 3D. On the other hand C64 excels at character gfx. For example, you don't have to ROL large chunks of memory because you have hardware scrolling. But this is very far off the subject.
Quote:
So demoscene is no longer what demosceners want it to be
Demoscene is no longer what some demosceners want it to be! This has been like this for ages. As soon as new technology is introduced a group of people immediately want to fuck with it and another group thinks it changes the current status quo too much. see also 3d acceleration, streaming music, etc.
I find the point about having a cool tech playground that feels under utilized p good tho. All newbies that join have started fucking with older computers and messing about with things they probably wouldn't have come upon other wise.
Quote:
Look at the latest ASD demo and "demoscene purists" complains about the file size. I was the once one of them complainers, but I reflected on "other sides arguments" and I've changed my mind. Why limit yourself to file size at all? Maybe it's a relic of the past
The funny thing is that I don't think size has mattered for demos at all, at least not in compo rules. Some people feel there is some kind of unwritten rule that they should be smaller than 'a video capture' but the ASD demo comments show that is very flimsy reasoning.
And the scene never really deprecate the ways of the past, we just introduced them into different or new compos :D
Quote:
also this is a matter of taste... i'd rather watch a mediocre looking PC demo than your "art of code"-contribution on the Amiga that renders 2 bobs more than Kefrens in 1993 because after all, they're still bobs
I understand that. In fact, me too.
I kinda got the feeling (maybe I'm wrong) the question in this thread at some point came to - how to attract newcomers by audio/visual merit of demos alone? And my answer is - You can't. On a PC, one can render something offline using software worth 100000$ into a video file, get a minimalistic video player coded, and I bet you the aforementioned newcomer will think it's the best demo ever. Especially if you read this:
Quote:
Why limit yourself to file size at all? Maybe it's a relic of the past!
Quote:
On a PC, one can render something offline using software worth 100000$ into a video file, get a minimalistic video player coded, and I bet you the aforementioned newcomer will think it's the best demo ever. Especially if you read this:
Quote:Why limit yourself to file size at all? Maybe it's a relic of the past!
Yes nobody has ever done this.
Well, people did on Amiga lol
And that's why there is a shortage of Amiga coders. At least I heard so somewhere.
@okkie : Basically, what you're saying is : if you take a self-produced Pixar style short or a video file of any sort, strap on a player on it, it's a demo. Or I got something wrong?
No, I said that nobody has ever done that so it's a moot point.
oh, i made a typo, i meant 'yet nobody has ever done this'
imagine doing that, spending all the time and effort only to be labeled a lamer (and rightly so) for all eternity
yeah, just enter it in the animation compo, which is what many people have done.
the more i think about it, the dumber the point is, cause indeed, it's so much fucking work to fake a demo that way. Maxon even won an animation compo with a realtime demo wannabe
unless it is on a platform that wouldnt normally allow this, such as 8088 or 8bits etc
yes, but that is not the point of that argument. It's that it's easier to pawn of video as a demo. the opposite.
@okkie :
Spaceballs' State of the Art Amiga demo comes to mind.
If I remember right, it was made using (then) somewhat expensive hardware for capture, then coding a compressor / player.
On this kind of demomaking it seems there are (or were) 2 camps: people either 'despise' it or 'adore' it. So one could say, yea it's been done before and it was a success.
Spaceballs' State of the Art Amiga demo comes to mind.
If I remember right, it was made using (then) somewhat expensive hardware for capture, then coding a compressor / player.
On this kind of demomaking it seems there are (or were) 2 camps: people either 'despise' it or 'adore' it. So one could say, yea it's been done before and it was a success.
But I get (I think) what you're saying : You're saying that it's easier to code a good demo than to mimick a demo by producing a self-playing animation.
Which part of SOTA was done "offline using software worth 100000$ into a video file"? You're diminishing the effort that went into making it.
A lot of tbl demos have videos on them! or are animated skyboxes ok all of sudden? :D
But yeah, it makes sense to show off video playback on a machine that is usually not capable of that. It's insane to think someone would make a really good video and then disguise it as a demo instead of putting it in the animation compo.
I do remember a lot of people being mad at Eon for being 'basically a video player' so eh.. i guess it's always in the eye of the beholder, which is what this thread has been about for 14 pages now.
But yeah, it makes sense to show off video playback on a machine that is usually not capable of that. It's insane to think someone would make a really good video and then disguise it as a demo instead of putting it in the animation compo.
I do remember a lot of people being mad at Eon for being 'basically a video player' so eh.. i guess it's always in the eye of the beholder, which is what this thread has been about for 14 pages now.
Quote:
Which part of SOTA was done "offline using software worth 100000$ into a video file"? You're diminishing the effort that went into making it.
Also this!
i fucking love this thread!