So, how dead is it?
category: general [glöplog]
In the retirement home I'll only ask for a c64 and go back to poke 53280 stuff :-)
My guess is young people don't even know about the demoscene, unless they are children of the demoscener.
I think you guys do everything fine, but there is also no way to attract newcomers "artificially" (as in artificial intelligence :P). It's a hobby that requires work in your spare time for free, so it's better be interesting and/or something that gives you street cred.
I think you guys do everything fine, but there is also no way to attract newcomers "artificially" (as in artificial intelligence :P). It's a hobby that requires work in your spare time for free, so it's better be interesting and/or something that gives you street cred.
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In the retirement home I'll only ask for a c64 and go back to poke 53280 stuff
I would not even say the demoscene is a hobby. Most sceners are professionals.
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I think you guys do everything fine, but there is also no way to attract newcomers "artificially"
Food for thought: There's a gigantic hole right now in gamedev recruitment because even gamedev/programming students coming out of university are at best equipped with knowledge about managed languages (Java, Python), and high level gamedev tools (Unity, Unreal), and are entirely unprepared for a situation where they're required to know memory management, optimization, understanding of rendering, audio, I/O, network, and so on. As a result, game companies big and small (but ESPECIALLY midsized ones where a ninja coder is worth their weight in gold) are explicitly dying to find talent who have extracurricularly learned that sort of shit (even if the studio uses Unreal), because neither higher education nor code camps and stuff are producing those people currently.
The scene WOULD be the perfect niche for that, where a few years of riskfree fuckabout equips you with that sort of understanding. All it would need is taking ourselves a bit more seriously and leaning into it. (This isn't hypothetical btw, I actually had these industry conversations.)
let's rename revision to "gamedev bootcamp"
So maybe it's time for gamedev leads to treat employee with respect, so they don't flock to other sectors?
Once again I regret talking to you.
For many people, the demoscene is a game dev bootcamp, and there's no shame in that.. goes back to the early '90s Amiga scene, if not earlier. For others, it's a hobby, maybe a creative outlet from their career in game dev or other programming/design/music field. For yet others, it's just something to watch when you get high. :) Whatever works for you.
I could use a job. Want to hire a 50 year old grey beard who can read and write MOS 6510 assembly fluently?
I do not think that it is right to generalize the kids today. Sceners have always been a tiny fraction of each age class. Very tiny. Kids today have different toys.
The world is very very different to the past: Just the other day I started to build a sort of a blog site for myself - https://www.huonot.fi, and that process taught me that I absolutely hate everything that has WWW or HTML, JS or server or API or Browser written in it. I've known how to plot stuff to screen since '86 or so. Web stuff is like advising a demented monkey to do something while trying to please everyone who's come up with a feature or a spec that needs to be served and supported... but I digress.
I do not think that it is right to generalize the kids today. Sceners have always been a tiny fraction of each age class. Very tiny. Kids today have different toys.
The world is very very different to the past: Just the other day I started to build a sort of a blog site for myself - https://www.huonot.fi, and that process taught me that I absolutely hate everything that has WWW or HTML, JS or server or API or Browser written in it. I've known how to plot stuff to screen since '86 or so. Web stuff is like advising a demented monkey to do something while trying to please everyone who's come up with a feature or a spec that needs to be served and supported... but I digress.
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Once again I regret talking to you.
Ok, I'm not sure what do you mean here actually. Just because I tend to have different opinions than you?
I was talking about bigger studios... EA, Ubisoft, Annapurna Interactive, CD Project Red, even ID Software, etc... all historically and actually also quite recently had very bad press when it comes to exploitations and other abuses.
I also personally know quite a few people who left gamedev for good to "enjoy" more boring, but more stable and actually even better paid job in other sectors.
Of course this has nothing to do with the demoscene or bootcamps, but might be another reason why gamedev studios are "dying to find talent".
I dunno if it's worth having a look at what the c64 scene is doing, because if you have a look on csdb they tend to release stuff all year round. Obviously one difference is the separate art and music releases also have visibility there, whereas pouet is purely demos.
Would having that extra visibility help keep people's enthusiasm up? I'm sure most people are doing as much extra work in other areas but it's going to be fragmented to other sites. As an example when a few artists started posting petscii pictures there it really made that area of the scene take off, to the point it has it's own tag and space in party competitions now.
Another thing on csdb is mini site-only competitions lasting a few weeks with a particular topic, which is where some of the best stuff from the last few years has come from. (like https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61338 ) Not having that pressure to commit to a full demo at a party, but still being able to do good satisfying work seems like it could fit into more people's lifestyles now.
Would having that extra visibility help keep people's enthusiasm up? I'm sure most people are doing as much extra work in other areas but it's going to be fragmented to other sites. As an example when a few artists started posting petscii pictures there it really made that area of the scene take off, to the point it has it's own tag and space in party competitions now.
Another thing on csdb is mini site-only competitions lasting a few weeks with a particular topic, which is where some of the best stuff from the last few years has come from. (like https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61338 ) Not having that pressure to commit to a full demo at a party, but still being able to do good satisfying work seems like it could fit into more people's lifestyles now.
4mat has a clue. It is much more interesting when there are different categories (would mean whole site remade i know) but especially the compos here and there. Nectarine compos made me personally work at least.
but you can see those at demozoo already, right?
ummm no i mean at site compos
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The few releases every year that can get non-demosceners excited really need to push the envelope to compete with all of the other CGI stuff that’s out there now… I mean, a lot of technically minded people DO know about demoscene prods. It’s just doesn't seem to have the same novelty and attraction as it did in the 90s for me.
You make valid points. The problem is that it's hard to compete with film studios or 100+ people teams who create AAA video games even if it was your full-time "job". The tools, the workflows, all of it is a pretty significant investment. Plus the novelty factor is no longer there. Back in Amiga days CGI wasn't common even in movies but now it's ubiquitous.
The fact that a large part of scene culture consists of inside jokes and irrelevancies that were started two or three decades ago isn't really helping either.
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Food for thought: There's a gigantic hole right now in gamedev recruitment because even gamedev/programming students coming out of university are at best equipped with knowledge about managed languages (Java, Python), and high level gamedev tools (Unity, Unreal), and are entirely unprepared for a situation where they're required to know memory management, optimization, understanding of rendering, audio, I/O, network, and so on.
Interesting how this is what I've been saying was about to happen for years now, and unfortunately I was basically destroyed on this vey same forum for saying that. I even dare to say that this was my first very own prophecy.
"Crappy advice", "Boomer", "Elitist", and so on. Nice to finally see that I was not wrong at all.
Now, let's wait for some 3 to 5 years to see if I am wrong about AI usages...
Say, monthly demo compo and weekly music/gfx compos wouldn't at least hurt, no?
Or another idea is to make demoscene less accessible, therefore more elusive and desirable. This worked for techno scene in Berlin with Berghain bs...but I'm not a fan tbh
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Quote:I think you guys do everything fine, but there is also no way to attract newcomers "artificially"
Food for thought: There's a gigantic hole right now in gamedev recruitment because even gamedev/programming students coming out of university are at best equipped with knowledge about managed languages (Java, Python), and high level gamedev tools (Unity, Unreal), and are entirely unprepared for a situation where they're required to know memory management, optimization, understanding of rendering, audio, I/O, network, and so on. As a result, game companies big and small (but ESPECIALLY midsized ones where a ninja coder is worth their weight in gold) are explicitly dying to find talent who have extracurricularly learned that sort of shit (even if the studio uses Unreal), because neither higher education nor code camps and stuff are producing those people currently.
The scene WOULD be the perfect niche for that, where a few years of riskfree fuckabout equips you with that sort of understanding. All it would need is taking ourselves a bit more seriously and leaning into it. (This isn't hypothetical btw, I actually had these industry conversations.)
It's not just gamedev recruitment. I work for a large global tech company with R&D sites mostly around Europe. I'm in a division formed from an acquired company. When I was in the smaller company recruitment was tricky. Their ears perked up during the acquisition process when I mentioned writing scene type stuff for fun. I know they've had sceners on the ranks before and even been involved at some level with parties.
I see the global data & HR info. There is a world wide shortage of competent programmers at the level the core software operates and lots of filtering through college recruits to find ones competent in lower level c/c++ rather than web technologies. (Old guys like me that came from old Commodore, to DOS, to early iterations of Windows & driver development. All my peers did this route). Of the younger ones it's usually its self-motivated self-starting type people that fit better regardless of whether they've done much official education.
I still think about the stuff I did 20+ years ago. I have ideas.. But working full time & being a parent takes priority... For now..
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Food for thought: There's a gigantic hole right now in gamedev recruitment because even gamedev/programming students coming out of university are at best equipped with knowledge about managed languages (Java, Python), and high level gamedev tools (Unity, Unreal), and are entirely unprepared for a situation where they're required to know memory management, optimization, understanding of rendering, audio, I/O, network, and so on. As a result, game companies big and small (but ESPECIALLY midsized ones where a ninja coder is worth their weight in gold) are explicitly dying to find talent who have extracurricularly learned that sort of shit (even if the studio uses Unreal), because neither higher education nor code camps and stuff are producing those people currently.
I don't know; I'm working with some pretty young people at the moment (early twenties young), who are doing all kinds of cool low level shit, just like back in the day. It's true that these skills aren't taught at universities, but then again they pretty much haven't been since at least the eighties. As when we were young, these are skills you need to pick up elsewhere. Back in our day, the scene was a natural place to do so. Not so much for today's youngsters.
I'm not sure where they hang out, because I'm not invited, but I'm certain they have their own forums where they hone their skills, free from the completely uninteresting opinions of old people like us.
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I'm working with some pretty young people at the moment (early twenties young), who are doing all kinds of cool low level shit
My point is: Ask your recruiter how hard it was to find those kind of people.
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It's true that these skills aren't taught at universities, but then again they pretty much haven't been since at least the eighties
Yeah but how big was the industry then and how big is it now? Supply can't keep up with demand.
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I would not even say the demoscene is a hobby. Most sceners are professionals.
Sometimes it's really difficult to ignore such nonsense.
