So, how dead is it?
category: general [glöplog]
I just wanna say thanks to the people holding everything together. Gargaj, Gasman, demoparty orgas and for sure a bunch of folks I don’t even know are doing that much, without which our little niche bubble would surely collapse. Love you <3
Ps. I don’t know enough recent history to be 100% confident this here checks out, but just in case: Gargaj don't let it burn you out! It’s not worth it. If you rage quit, someone will pick up the scraps, exactly the way you did before. And if not, then that’s kinda on the rest of us, not you. Worst case scenario the pouet bbs becomes an unmoderated flamefest. That’d suck but in the grand scheme of things it’s… just what sometimes happens. It sure wouldn’t prevent anyone from re-watching piledriver every morning for breakfast and re-reading that glorious infofile over and over again. Pouet != scene and scene != pouet and I bet something similar holds for most of the other things you’re so thanklessly keeping alive and mostly turd-free. And until then, thanks so so much for your work. Take care <3
Ps. I don’t know enough recent history to be 100% confident this here checks out, but just in case: Gargaj don't let it burn you out! It’s not worth it. If you rage quit, someone will pick up the scraps, exactly the way you did before. And if not, then that’s kinda on the rest of us, not you. Worst case scenario the pouet bbs becomes an unmoderated flamefest. That’d suck but in the grand scheme of things it’s… just what sometimes happens. It sure wouldn’t prevent anyone from re-watching piledriver every morning for breakfast and re-reading that glorious infofile over and over again. Pouet != scene and scene != pouet and I bet something similar holds for most of the other things you’re so thanklessly keeping alive and mostly turd-free. And until then, thanks so so much for your work. Take care <3
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We tend to happily look past it saying 'see how many newcomers Evoke had' but how many of these newcomers stick around and take on the boring things. we even did a Zine Radio Show episode how the basis of all online demoscene presence is basically about three people.
What's the reason for this? Shall we talk about the elephant in the room, or continue ignoring it?
i suspect that accepting help that's offered and not deeming it below acceptable quality upfront could help to offload some tasks
also, the same people doing the same tasks for 20+ years might be related to the average demoscener's utter inability to let go of hobby horses in favour of creating opportunties for newcomers
“How to systematically ensure that nothing changes”:
- in communication, always focus on deficits
- make sure everybody agrees on these deficits
- silence those who ask curious questions
- by ignoring their questions
- reduce the entire range of conversations to a binary choice, either this, or that
- communicate in ways that drive every contributor to choose either one of them
- make sure there’s only one feasible choice, and that one’s always the most negative
- in case of doubt: educate contributors who do not adhere to the most negative choice how they’re wrong and how, what they actually contributed, actually means the opposite of what they say
This works most effectively, if those in charge propagate this system whenever possible. To ensure nobody ever gets the idea of to collaborate with them.
Because: who enjoys working with people, whose online communication patterns are focused on deficits?
- in communication, always focus on deficits
- make sure everybody agrees on these deficits
- silence those who ask curious questions
- by ignoring their questions
- reduce the entire range of conversations to a binary choice, either this, or that
- communicate in ways that drive every contributor to choose either one of them
- make sure there’s only one feasible choice, and that one’s always the most negative
- in case of doubt: educate contributors who do not adhere to the most negative choice how they’re wrong and how, what they actually contributed, actually means the opposite of what they say
This works most effectively, if those in charge propagate this system whenever possible. To ensure nobody ever gets the idea of to collaborate with them.
Because: who enjoys working with people, whose online communication patterns are focused on deficits?
Any examples of these silenced curious questions?
This is the best thread since the scene died back in 1988!
And what docd said. All of it.
And what docd said. All of it.
I can't fathom why almost all young graphics programmers(there are a lot of them!) and generative artists are totally unfazed by the demoscene, it's like the coolest thing... Bums me out i can't get any musician/artist/coder friends interested at all even in enjoying watching demos.
The many reasons mentioned in this thread are real, it could be the combination of all of them... But I always thought pouet graphic design was super slick and inviting, all the grids and rectangles are comforting and everything is nicely packed together. It seems rather friendlier than most modern websites. (okay I go to demozoo for hi-res screenshots of exegfx)
Personally i'm just stuck in years of creating tooling around making the demo i want to make at that point of time or learning rendering/audio algos/math...
x) the demos people are making nowadays are so good though
The many reasons mentioned in this thread are real, it could be the combination of all of them... But I always thought pouet graphic design was super slick and inviting, all the grids and rectangles are comforting and everything is nicely packed together. It seems rather friendlier than most modern websites. (okay I go to demozoo for hi-res screenshots of exegfx)
Personally i'm just stuck in years of creating tooling around making the demo i want to make at that point of time or learning rendering/audio algos/math...
x) the demos people are making nowadays are so good though
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Bums me out i can't get any musician/artist/coder friends interested at all even in enjoying watching demos.
Have you asked them why?
not really, but i assume it's all the reasons people mentioned in the thread...
I found it quite easy to find musicians to work with me tbh -
for example "ask in the scene discord if anyone wants to work with you" did the trick several times.
I also got asked directly by musicians sometimes. :)
for example "ask in the scene discord if anyone wants to work with you" did the trick several times.
I also got asked directly by musicians sometimes. :)
they mean outside of the scene.
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Well, Yes.. not only CDROMs got the scene to die, but also the
internet... Well, not really.. The internet on one hand got many people
to prefer internet upon BBSs. On the other hand, internet got many
people to purchase modem, and they all looking for BBSs as well. But
still internet in the end, will be the main issue, and BBSs will be kept
on the side.
:]
As pouet oneliner said - demoscene is like a torrent release, it is dead until there is a peer around, atleast one.
CD-Rom killed the scene, and the internet, hahahah!!!
I remember I found a cheap CD-Rom with Doom WADs at the time and was like wow, I buy and have 600 of WADs. And my brother was like "why buy it? we have the internet now you can download that stuff". But we were still in modems and made sense at the time, to insta have the CD DeathDay for 2000 Drachmas while it take me ages and phone bills to get them.
I remember I found a cheap CD-Rom with Doom WADs at the time and was like wow, I buy and have 600 of WADs. And my brother was like "why buy it? we have the internet now you can download that stuff". But we were still in modems and made sense at the time, to insta have the CD DeathDay for 2000 Drachmas while it take me ages and phone bills to get them.
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Bums me out i can't get any musician/artist/coder friends interested at all even in enjoying watching demos.
I remember back in the early 90s when I started watching demos, it was some bleeding edge stuff - there wasn’t much CGI around in the first place, and demos were just super cool and novel. I had a pretty intense desire to figure out what this magical new thing was about.
These days, not so much.. most demos point backwards in time so to speak… as in: the vast majority of releases are aimed at oldskool platforms. Why would people be interested in watching retro demoscene stuff unless they have a nostalgic thing for it, or for some other reason have an attraction to antiquated hardware?
The few releases every year that can get non-demosceners excited really need to push the envelope to compete with all of the other CGI stuff that’s out there now… I mean, a lot of technically minded people DO know about demoscene prods. It’s just doesnt seem to have the same novelty and attraction as it did in the 90s for me - and likely because most of it isn’t actually very interesting.
Did I really just log in for the first time in years just to randomly reply to this thread? I guess I did.
The scene isn't dead, but just like any ongoing process it changes and evolves. One thing is certain: For every year that passes, the average age of active sceners increases by one year. Young people don't do this; I have no idea what they are actually doing (besides TikTok) because I'm old, but I know they're not at any parties I visit.
We'll have the scene for exactly as long as we want to. If fewer and fewer people want it, it'll consolidate into fewer parties, and fewer online forums. (Feels familiar yet?) When we get too old, it'll die with us.
And at that point, we won't care.
The scene isn't dead, but just like any ongoing process it changes and evolves. One thing is certain: For every year that passes, the average age of active sceners increases by one year. Young people don't do this; I have no idea what they are actually doing (besides TikTok) because I'm old, but I know they're not at any parties I visit.
We'll have the scene for exactly as long as we want to. If fewer and fewer people want it, it'll consolidate into fewer parties, and fewer online forums. (Feels familiar yet?) When we get too old, it'll die with us.
And at that point, we won't care.
@farfar: Oldskoolers are painting on a canvas that isn't withering away under their fingers in the moment they use it for creating their art. Old machines are simply more sustainable material.
bifat: except for those pesky condensators that need changing every 30 years :)
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Well, most sceners are close to 50 years old nowadays. They have been doing the same sort of things for decades. So probably it is a natural law that their activity is declining.
to necro quote...
I'm curious what will happen in the next 10-20 years when the first waves start to retire.
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I'm curious what will happen in the next 10-20 years when the first waves start to retire.
When the scene boomer generation arrives to the retirement age they will have more free time which leads to the massive flood of awesome demos and other scene productions. By that time they have also managed to convert their grannyfriends into sceners, thus doubling the rosters of groups.
Utopia in 20 years! \o/
"Famous last words !" :D
