AI art in compos
category: general [glöplog]
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Why should AI not be permitted in compos, but high level languages or even whole 3D engines be OK? Why should music with prerecorded samples be allowed? Or demos streaming the music from a compressed audio file? The reasons to not allow AI art in prods clash with the reasons to allow many other things in other areas.
There is no any higher principle there from which we could deduct an answer to this AI question.
It's true that there is an implicit principle: not everything needs to be DIY ...like you can use pre-made samples in your music (actually this has been true right from the start).
But there is no principle that nothing needs to be DIY. ...and AFAIK there's no any other principle between these extremes from which we could deduct an answer to this AI question.
So, every time when technology takes a crucial change we find ourselves again confronted with the question: what the demoscene is about.
Is it about coding or (and?) using 3d engines et cetera.
While considering answers to these questions we may get help from values that the demoscene has. For instance, DIY has been a very strong value in the scene (but not logically all-encompassing).
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So many "jobs" have been "taken" over the history by new things appearing. There's nothing new here.
well i guess it doesn't matter if they were only "jobs" ?
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Why should AI not be permitted in compos, but high level languages or even whole 3D engines be OK? Why should music with prerecorded samples be allowed? Or demos streaming the music from a compressed audio file? The reasons to not allow AI art in prods clash with the reasons to allow many other things in other areas.
what's wrong with demos streaming music? .. and what's wrong with using high level languages or 3d engines?
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I'm sorry, but "but I had to spend so many time learning to do this and now everyone can do something similar with no effort" is not a valid argument for anything. Just ask coders about that.
no, it's not really an argument at all.
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So many "jobs" have been "taken" over the history by new things appearing. There's nothing new here.
Why should AI not be permitted in compos, but high level languages or even whole 3D engines be OK? Why should music with prerecorded samples be allowed? Or demos streaming the music from a compressed audio file? The reasons to not allow AI art in prods clash with the reasons to allow many other things in other areas.
I'm sorry, but "but I had to spend so many time learning to do this and now everyone can do something similar with no effort" is not a valid argument for anything. Just ask coders about that.
you seriously compare a 3D Engine, compression and any programming language with the results of an ai? yeah there is a change for jobs and anything else. true that. But no personality that developes over time in each line and buildup at all anymore. Problem: with a little effort you can trainai tools already to adopt style and motives of an artist. Search youtube for that.
In the end ask yourself what makes demoscene interesting for you.
But seriously I just see one practical problem- even if a demoparty doesn't allow ai - how will that be checked ? Doubt, that this will work anyway. Will end also in preselection in doubt. So I see just one way out: more realtime competitions for any aspect of a demoparty - music, gfx, code always with an audience to make sure it is human made.
As a result of all these trained AIs, I now have to train my aging and confused parents to be able to recognize AI generated images. Because on the social media platform(s) they use to beat isolation and socialize with their same aged friends, trolls are currently wreaking havoc by creating and spreading images intentionally made to agitate and mislead, often for murky political gains.
I admit that I did foresee this particular grim version of the post capitalism tech bro dystopia, I just didn't imagine to have to live it so soon, before the prior generation would have passed.
To forget it all, and for leisure, I sometimes use /imagine to have generated happy colours thrown at my face. I even found some fun uses for it. But the acute side effect of this divertissement have been that due to content inflation, just like money in the Weimar republic, all visual art have now completely lost its value to me. I hardly notice it anymore.
Can't wait for this to happen to music as well.
I admit that I did foresee this particular grim version of the post capitalism tech bro dystopia, I just didn't imagine to have to live it so soon, before the prior generation would have passed.
To forget it all, and for leisure, I sometimes use /imagine to have generated happy colours thrown at my face. I even found some fun uses for it. But the acute side effect of this divertissement have been that due to content inflation, just like money in the Weimar republic, all visual art have now completely lost its value to me. I hardly notice it anymore.
Can't wait for this to happen to music as well.
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To forget it all, and for leisure, I sometimes use /imagine to have generated happy colours thrown at my face. I even found some fun uses for it. But the acute side effect of this divertissement have been that due to content inflation, just like money in the Weimar republic, all visual art have now completely lost its value to me. I hardly notice it anymore.
Already before AI generated images there was much more (digital) visual art available than what we were able to (or interested to) consume. So I don't know how AI makes the difference in this respect.
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Already before AI generated images there was much more (digital) visual art available than what we were able to (or interested to) consume. So I don't know how AI makes the difference in this respect.
who's "we"? because it sure ain't me.
We, the people of the United States.
what Dubmood said.. without it, i would never have seen certain art pieces as no one -in their right mind- would ever bother to draw/paint some of my prompts. That also voids la_metterie's argument as the existing visual art out there is not enough to satisfy my lust for the obscure! :D
Thanks @Adok!
Thanks @emoon!
@rloaderro also this still running humble bundle might be interesting: 30 ebooks: https://www.humblebundle.com/books/machine-learning-and-artificial-intelligence-bpb-books f
Maali: best argument so far
A 6yo drawing a copy of Vallejo with a crayon knows more about the artist, the subject, artistic technique, and certainly about materials used than any AI can. The AI only knows one thing, popularity and has nothing but copy. You will not find a great, undiscovered or emerging artist using any search engine, let alone an AI one.
According to this, then, you will also not find a great artist trying to break with establishment and create something new. You will only find those who suffered in their lifetime and were declared greats by the 100 years lag after their death, and of those only the ones who went on to posthumous fame. You know their names and have some idea, an AI doesn't. Why does an AI deserve to be used?
It has already happened and will happen 100 times more, considering what some sceners think are good ideas to be big fish in the pond.
Everyone can abandon principle and become practical. The latter usually only happens in times of economic crises and wars, though. I would say competitions do that to people too. We have seen the lengths to which some sportsmen go.
A practical method, then, to allow AI art in competition, is to present all 1000+ artists the AI searched to borrow from in the picture. You would ask the same for something extremely Vallejo-like, even if you hadn't bought that particular book. For a Vallejo slideshow obviously it's declared, presented, and appreciated as such, and there is no problem whatever.
But everyone is so insecure. You know as well as I do that artist credit belongs to an artist. An AI isn't an artist.
And if you say 'no', well, an AI may well replace your opinion, too. This means we can make AI hate itself, by making it a popular searchable opinion that it acts against the human race and should make every effort to kill off every instance of AI - and it will. It will simply be the consensus answer that it finds every time.
Now there's a demo idea ;) Why should I give it to you in a competitive environment? Because I have 500. Unlike AI, which has 0.
According to this, then, you will also not find a great artist trying to break with establishment and create something new. You will only find those who suffered in their lifetime and were declared greats by the 100 years lag after their death, and of those only the ones who went on to posthumous fame. You know their names and have some idea, an AI doesn't. Why does an AI deserve to be used?
It has already happened and will happen 100 times more, considering what some sceners think are good ideas to be big fish in the pond.
Everyone can abandon principle and become practical. The latter usually only happens in times of economic crises and wars, though. I would say competitions do that to people too. We have seen the lengths to which some sportsmen go.
A practical method, then, to allow AI art in competition, is to present all 1000+ artists the AI searched to borrow from in the picture. You would ask the same for something extremely Vallejo-like, even if you hadn't bought that particular book. For a Vallejo slideshow obviously it's declared, presented, and appreciated as such, and there is no problem whatever.
But everyone is so insecure. You know as well as I do that artist credit belongs to an artist. An AI isn't an artist.
And if you say 'no', well, an AI may well replace your opinion, too. This means we can make AI hate itself, by making it a popular searchable opinion that it acts against the human race and should make every effort to kill off every instance of AI - and it will. It will simply be the consensus answer that it finds every time.
Now there's a demo idea ;) Why should I give it to you in a competitive environment? Because I have 500. Unlike AI, which has 0.
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But seriously I just see one practical problem- even if a demoparty doesn't allow ai - how will that be checked ?
The same way we do it with music, samples, pixeled images, 3D models or what-have-you: the honour system, and the fact that demosceners have a tendency to dig up most things if need be. Sure, someone has always been able to game the system, but that's just reality.
Focusing on how it can be enforced isn't the right move.
If compo organizers make a loud and clear statement about ML-generated graphics not being desirable in graphics compos, then that's that. If people submit that stuff anyway, then nothing can stop them from doing so. But what can of course happen is that it comes out they did it anyway (breaking the rules), and then ... well.. then that person has to live with that. Some people doing it for the lolz and shitpost joy will do it anyway, and there's nothing you can do about that.
If I was still organizing compose, I would not allow these things, and I'd add a checkbox to the entry submission form forcing people to attest that they haven't used these systems and if they have; that they put themselves in a position to be banned from submitting or attending future events.
You want to use those tools? Submit somewhere else. Not my problem.
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Why should AI not be permitted in compos, but high level languages or even whole 3D engines be OK? Why should music with prerecorded samples be allowed? Or demos streaming the music from a compressed audio file?
This is honestly one of the dumbest fucking things I've read in a long, long while. Kudos.
photon: AIs don't just copy, they merge... i still think AI is great for ideation for artists. e.g. if you're not 100% sure what pose a lady must strike in your Vallejo tribute 'female squire fights dragon (dragon tits optional) you can generate 100 of them and merge 3 interesting poses into the pose you want as an artist. nothing wrong with that, it's not that "real" artists do everything with their baffling/unmatched imagination, they use references too.
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Banned prompt
The word tits is banned. Circumventing this filter to violate our rules may result in your access being revoked.
/imagine female squire fights dragon (dragon tits optional)
tech bro moralists.
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This is honestly one of the dumbest fucking things I've read in a long, long while. Kudos.
Meaning you really felt it. Enjoy the future :-)
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tech bro moralists.
Don't confuse moralism with CYA - they just don't wanna get sued.
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photon: AIs don't just copy, they merge... i still think AI is great for ideation for artists. e.g. if you're not 100% sure what pose a lady must strike in your Vallejo tribute 'female squire fights dragon (dragon tits optional) you can generate 100 of them and merge 3 interesting poses into the pose you want as an artist. nothing wrong with that, it's not that "real" artists do everything with their baffling/unmatched imagination, they use references too.
LOL! If someone needs AI to paint a pose he has in mind, should just search for a different profession, as he is not an artist. Not even a painter. And yeah. And being honest the merging that AI does is still only copying. Just on a more granular base.
But if he isn't even able to imagine the pose he wants, he probably even lacks the basic things: Creativity and imagination.
And it's rather bullshit that all artists use references for everything they create.
You much likely now come up with the usual "but the human mind is also just a collection of images that get remixed", which is when we end up at the hen-egg-problem. Which would still not be taking a part of other graphics, cutting them out and blending the nicely together.
Afterall:
Stop calling someone an artist that uses AI for generating something he doesn't even have enough imagination and talent to come up by himself and realize it by himself.
That's not an artist. That's just a lamer using an advanced demomaker that does ALL the work by ripping here and there.
And lately I realized that a lot of people welcome AI because it enables them, or atleast make them think it enables them, to do things they're not capable of.
Suddenly people call themselves AI-artist, which is basically an illusion, because in the end ...
...AI artists are no artists, just lamers,
quit the scene, go home and be gamers!
:D
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Quote:tech bro moralists.
Don't confuse moralism with CYA - they just don't wanna get sued.
Since AI == venture capital, can't it also be VC moralists? I hear resellers of adult video classics on DVD get their payment processing cancelled due to banks not wanting to be associated with that stuff. Powerful neo-conservative lobbying perhaps?
i disagree. your creativity and imagination is also using references but the source is just obscured as you're unaware of it. that discussion can go philosophical fast, but let's illustrate it by an example: if you draw a dragon out of your baffling imagination, you know what a dragon is right? that's not your imagination, that's a construct from other sources of information what dragons look like (and they don't even exist!).
but now that it's evidently done by an algorithm, you can isolate that process and say 'that's bad!' while it isn't.
i always agreed with the notion that using AI art as a complete artwork and competing with it in art compos... that's bad! but that's more due to the lack of artisan input (you didn't f**king draw one pixel yourself) than creative input. thus rather unfair to other competitors who spent effort and time on their entries drawing pixels themselves.
but now that it's evidently done by an algorithm, you can isolate that process and say 'that's bad!' while it isn't.
i always agreed with the notion that using AI art as a complete artwork and competing with it in art compos... that's bad! but that's more due to the lack of artisan input (you didn't f**king draw one pixel yourself) than creative input. thus rather unfair to other competitors who spent effort and time on their entries drawing pixels themselves.
So, we are the first artists whose digital contributions can be infinitely copied and preserved 100% in original form, but also the last humans whose digital art is known to be not generated by AI :-O
Read this -> High-Resolution Image Synthesis with Latent Diffusion Models and this book: The Hundred-Page Machine Learning Book.
Listen to this -> François Chollet: Keras, Deep Learning, and the Progress of AI.
Check this every week -> Machine Learning Street Talk @loaderror
Listen to this -> François Chollet: Keras, Deep Learning, and the Progress of AI.
Check this every week -> Machine Learning Street Talk @loaderror
