What is the releation between demoscene, chiptune and VGM scene
category: general [glöplog]
As I know, the very first people start making music procedures for sound chip is arcade engineers in Japan. And Japanese developers have also made many sound chip work for game consoles.
However, the most commonly used chiptune tools, LSDJ and Nanoloop are born in Europe. Is LSDJ and Nanoloop a production of demoscene?
So, what is the story in 80s to 90s makes the center of chipmusic move from Japan to Europe? Or chiptune scene in Japan and Europe are totally different scene with different heritage?
I found there are so many different. for example MML (Music Macro Language) is much more popular in Japan and Trackers are much more popular in Europe.
VGM scene made a lot of FM synth related stuff, and more focused on rip and playback arcade and console music.
And demoscene make a lot of Trakcers (and SidStation), more focused on tools to compose own productions.
I also know in 80s European developers were hired by Japanese game companies to port arcade and console games into home computer, for example Rob Hubbard was working on Commando (Capcom), Martin Galway was working on Comic Bakery (Konami).
So, the early works on C64 SID are VGM too. But in what time and milestone event makes the SID works widely turned into kind of independent work (and not VGM)?
The question is a little messed I’m really confusion about
- Is chiptune a more Japanese or European thing? Who lead the community and the mainstream practice?
- Is chiptune a more tied VGM or more Demoscene community?
However, the most commonly used chiptune tools, LSDJ and Nanoloop are born in Europe. Is LSDJ and Nanoloop a production of demoscene?
So, what is the story in 80s to 90s makes the center of chipmusic move from Japan to Europe? Or chiptune scene in Japan and Europe are totally different scene with different heritage?
I found there are so many different. for example MML (Music Macro Language) is much more popular in Japan and Trackers are much more popular in Europe.
VGM scene made a lot of FM synth related stuff, and more focused on rip and playback arcade and console music.
And demoscene make a lot of Trakcers (and SidStation), more focused on tools to compose own productions.
I also know in 80s European developers were hired by Japanese game companies to port arcade and console games into home computer, for example Rob Hubbard was working on Commando (Capcom), Martin Galway was working on Comic Bakery (Konami).
So, the early works on C64 SID are VGM too. But in what time and milestone event makes the SID works widely turned into kind of independent work (and not VGM)?
The question is a little messed I’m really confusion about
- Is chiptune a more Japanese or European thing? Who lead the community and the mainstream practice?
- Is chiptune a more tied VGM or more Demoscene community?
some amiga person will probably come here very soon to explain how "chiptune" is a term coined by 4mat to describe 4 channel sample-based tracker modules
but as an atari person i've always replied to such people that we already used the term before amiga sample trackers existed
other than that, nanoloop and lsdj are products of an independent chiptune scene that originates in the late 90s, so long after the systems used had reached their highest massmarket popularity
my personal take is, chiptune is a worldwide thing, that's just the nature of modern culture in general combined with modern communication tools and international trade, and it's a core element of both VGM as well as demoscene
but as an atari person i've always replied to such people that we already used the term before amiga sample trackers existed
other than that, nanoloop and lsdj are products of an independent chiptune scene that originates in the late 90s, so long after the systems used had reached their highest massmarket popularity
my personal take is, chiptune is a worldwide thing, that's just the nature of modern culture in general combined with modern communication tools and international trade, and it's a core element of both VGM as well as demoscene
Quote:
other than that, nanoloop and lsdj are products of an independent chiptune scene that originates in the late 90s, so long after the systems used had reached their highest massmarket popularity
It came out of frustration of DAWs and synths being really expensive, so cheap video game hardware being used was the other extreme.
The first ever "chiptune party" I ever went to had nothing to do with either video games, or demoscene. It was just raw lo-fi bleeps and shit.
Quote:
So, what is the story in 80s to 90s makes the center of chipmusic move from Japan to Europe? Or chiptune scene in Japan and Europe are totally different scene with different heritage?
Quote:
- Is chiptune a more Japanese or European thing? Who lead the community and the mainstream practice?
I wouldn't say that professional game musicians formed any kind of "scene" ...though many early professionals like Jeroen Tel and Reyn Ouwehand have been part of the demoscene but this wasn't a norm.
In Europe the hobbyist scene was already strong in the last half of the 1980s. My impression is that in Japan it emerged later, but my knowledge may be lacking here.
Perhaps interestingly it seems that around the year 1985 more "serious" game music started to emerge both in Japan and Europe: games like Super Mario Bros and Gradius were released in Japan and Rob Hubbard and Martin Galway made their first notable songs in Europe (some of these songs were arrangements but also many were originals).
Quote:
I also know in 80s European developers were hired by Japanese game companies to port arcade and console games into home computer
I presume it was rather like that European game publishers bought rights to port these arcade games for home computers. Sadly, original Japanese composers were often left uncredited.
Quote:
- Is chiptune a more tied VGM or more Demoscene community?
At least the VGM scene seems to be more recent phenomenon whereas demoscene was there already in the 1980s, right? Later chiptune has been strong in both communities.
Quote:
So, the early works on C64 SID are VGM too. But in what time and milestone event makes the SID works widely turned into kind of independent work (and not VGM)?
When I look at the database of Nectarine radio, it seems that the year 1987 marked the breakthrough for Commodore 64 music made by demoscene hobbyists (some early artists were Laxity/MON, Wave (Jeroen Tel), Future Freak, Red). Songs from the previous years are almost exclusively game music. Of course there were some notable songs released earlier (like "Shades" by Chris Hülsbeck in 1986) but this method suggests that the year 1987 brought a big change.
https://www.scenestream.net/demovibes/tags/1985/
https://www.scenestream.net/demovibes/tags/1986/
https://www.scenestream.net/demovibes/tags/1987/
Quote:
some amiga person will probably come here very soon to explain how "chiptune" is a term coined by 4mat to describe 4 channel sample-based tracker modules. but as an atari person i've always replied to such people that we already used the term before amiga sample trackers existed
Is there any evidence to support this claim?
Anyway, it's good to note that already in the early times the word "chiptune" refered to tracker music that was made to sound like the music of 8-bit platforms. The word refers not per se to music made for PSG chips.
la_mettrie: yes i could back it up if i had some more time at my hands, for the moment i'm too busy with demoparty preparations though. but it's also a linguistic+logical thing, many people use the word tune to describe a song/piece of music, and the need to distinguish between PSG and sample music existed also before 4ch module trackers were invented. so 4mat deserves credit for coining the term for a specific category, before that it was just a combination of words that was sometimes used.
Didn't 4mat call them "m.t.s (multi tone system or something) technique tunes" at first though, and some others talked about chiptunes? Oh well, probably asked this before somewhere but can't remember how it was...
Making music with old sound chips isn't tied to a specific region, it's just how music was made on old computers (including game console and arcade machines). Differences in motivation, culture, and available hardware and software resulted in multiple independent communities, not one unified community. There's certainly some overlap and influence between communities, but perhaps not as strong a relation as you seem to assume.
Chip Music - 1989 - as written on Demozoo, '4-Mat’s first chip music disk, and possibly one of the oldest mentions of the term "chip music."'
no I never coined the term chiptune, assuming that's a joke from Havoc. iirc we called it chipmusic in the amiga scene (see Magnetic Field's Chipmusic Festival as an example) and both terms were about way before I was in that scene anyway. If you can find goto80's site he's gone through the whole history of how far back that term goes.
4mat: cheers, and yes and no concerning if i was joking or being serious. i've been in discussions with amiga people many times who adamantly insisted on you as the first source of the term. so in that way it was serious. but i also knew that i never saw you claim being this first source yourself, so in that sense what i said is a bit of a joke obviously. ;)
also, the correct term is 'keygen music'
or in dutch, "bliepjesmuziek"
is "VGM" specific to games on old platforms, or all video game music?
it all started to go bonkers when fakebit music appeared in the 00s anyway.
Timbaland invented chiptune music
You got it all wrong. Chiptune is a car-related term, obviously.
Quote:
is "VGM" specific to games on old platforms, or all video game music?
In this case, the "VGM scene" is people trying to rip and playback older music in modern/DIY/Modded hardware. a term in this community is the hashtag: #FM音源 (literally "音源" is "sound source", which mains "sound module" or "synthesizer" in different context)
For example this website: "The tale of FM sound modules"
https://ym2203.com/
VGMRips is a big collection
https://vgmrips.net/packs/
#FM音源 (FM synthesis) hardware maker
https://twitter.com/tzvyrkn734834
and another #FM音源 hardware maker
https://space.bilibili.com/623253809
I'm currently live in China and I found "chiptune" people here do a lot of "FM音源" stuff and almost no trackers.
I also checked the discussion here, the first post metioned
Quote:
To me chiptune is mostly about recreating the sound and feel of vintage console games from the 80's and early 90's. Producers put a lot of work into either emulating the sound chips of those systems or outright using them through various hardware mods.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26515571
Is that actually kind of different "denomination" in chiptune scene?
I heard the term "fakebit" thrown around for stuff that sounds chippy but using modern hardware/software.
Can wholeheartedly recommend this scholarly article about the historical proliferation of the names for chip music's various genres/scenes, and the claims of authenticity (or lack thereof!) that they have provoked.
Quote:
Is that actually kind of different "denomination" in chiptune scene?
Yes, "chiptune" is a quite multifaceted concept and there are several rather distinct scenes concentrating on different aspects of it.
Quote:
Can wholeheartedly recommend this scholarly article about the historical proliferation of the names for chip music's various genres/scenes, and the claims of authenticity (or lack thereof!) that they have provoked.
No matter how scholarly it is, it leans heavily on this totally confused way of using the concept "8 bit" like they do in some chipmusic scenes.
Stick to the literal question, guys!
Re-elation is achieved every time you listen to all these great tunes!
Re-elation is achieved every time you listen to all these great tunes!
maybe also useful to note that nowadays most new chiptune is made in trackers. but in the early days this was not the norm at all. lots of composers back in those early days made their compositions with just code and data statements because there were no trackers or other options available.