Bringing new people to the scene
category: general [glöplog]
It's a Schrödinger's cat ;P
It was interesting to read this.
I, personally, cannot consider myself as a demoscener, but I do follow it every now and then! I even met some cool people here! :P
I got introduced to the demoscene through PS1 and Paradox (Love you <3)
My involvement got a little bigger, when I discovered Nectarine and here I am. :)
I, personally, cannot consider myself as a demoscener, but I do follow it every now and then! I even met some cool people here! :P
I got introduced to the demoscene through PS1 and Paradox (Love you <3)
My involvement got a little bigger, when I discovered Nectarine and here I am. :)
docd - true that - but do you also have some ideas to add for an better outreach or do you think everything should stay as it is ? You wrote that there are many new people already - my personal gut feeling tells me is that many things of the active demoscene that are working thanks to the effort of a small amount of the same people over and over again. Maybe I am wrong - please may it be true - but that is my feeling. Mostly I just see old sceners come back , again. Which is nice - but no new blood ;).
As my answer to Question 2- if you can get someone personally to a party like bifat said - do that- that works much more times than one might think.
I personally would bring them to a small party first. :).
But I also would join in both the arguments that havok and shana had here.
For some events we maybe could also add some more real time challenges - all in a way that shares the idea of the demoscene- working within some limits, with computers, realtime and with a bit "friendly" competition. Like the realtime digital painting competitions, that you might limit to a range of colors, sizes and themes. Or for musicians - the same with some random musicians and a random theme for a tune jam with computers.
On the other hand sharing knowledge and examples in the web is the other way to grab peoples interest. Do you know the codebase64 wiki - something like this for other platforms - or some of the articles with a "making of" from demos. Even if some people will even get more grey hair, now - even a good strategy to share infos like like that through the different social networks - like a demoscene lobby work- could peak more interest into demoscene.
As my answer to Question 2- if you can get someone personally to a party like bifat said - do that- that works much more times than one might think.
I personally would bring them to a small party first. :).
But I also would join in both the arguments that havok and shana had here.
For some events we maybe could also add some more real time challenges - all in a way that shares the idea of the demoscene- working within some limits, with computers, realtime and with a bit "friendly" competition. Like the realtime digital painting competitions, that you might limit to a range of colors, sizes and themes. Or for musicians - the same with some random musicians and a random theme for a tune jam with computers.
On the other hand sharing knowledge and examples in the web is the other way to grab peoples interest. Do you know the codebase64 wiki - something like this for other platforms - or some of the articles with a "making of" from demos. Even if some people will even get more grey hair, now - even a good strategy to share infos like like that through the different social networks - like a demoscene lobby work- could peak more interest into demoscene.
titus:
We have new talents in the Meteoriks Jury, we have young folks every year at Revision and we have emerging scene clusters all over the world. Even in regions i didnt knew that there is proer internet.
Sure...the majority of the scene is kinda old.
But when you look closer, you will find a lot of young blood.
I know a few of them, who just did not step into the light.
They come to every revision, but they are for ome reasons just not willing to release something. yet...
Yes, we had rough years, But they are over. With new socialmedia, with twitch, with overlaping subcultures from gaming/arts/demoscene the scene itself is in a constant change.
Look closer. You will be surprised.
We have new talents in the Meteoriks Jury, we have young folks every year at Revision and we have emerging scene clusters all over the world. Even in regions i didnt knew that there is proer internet.
Sure...the majority of the scene is kinda old.
But when you look closer, you will find a lot of young blood.
I know a few of them, who just did not step into the light.
They come to every revision, but they are for ome reasons just not willing to release something. yet...
Yes, we had rough years, But they are over. With new socialmedia, with twitch, with overlaping subcultures from gaming/arts/demoscene the scene itself is in a constant change.
Look closer. You will be surprised.
"they are not willing to release something" is kind of an elephant in the room...maybe the entry level is too high? If the prod has to be polished on all fronts: design, music, code etc... and you know you will be shamed on pouet forever, of course you think twice before releasing anything.
Look at Shadertoy - there are small experimental shaders, technical ones, but also more polished 4k intro-quality...Shadertoy is of course just a toy, but it's a good example how to make both newcomers and old-timers happy.
Look at Shadertoy - there are small experimental shaders, technical ones, but also more polished 4k intro-quality...Shadertoy is of course just a toy, but it's a good example how to make both newcomers and old-timers happy.
What is interesting to see is that Shadertoy sort of has its own 'scene' that kind of reminds me of the 90s/00s 'tracker scene'. So plenty of those Shadertoy doodlers are not demosceners per se. If so, it's more likely the reverse. Anyway, e.g. that p_malin chap is a good example of that... years long track record on Shadertoy with nice stuff but only recently released something in the demoscene.
Yeah, the bar is v high. I also know quite some 'new' people that are hesitant releasing stuff.
Elitism is p much dead, which is good, i always push people to show their stuff. I'm way more excited for the first release from a person i just met at revision then the big name releases. (well, not really, it's different, you get what i mean)
Make all the things, release all the things, let's enjoy all the things!
And to the point of the thread, reasons to join the scene have changed over the years, some people get interested, some don't, it's all good. Happy to have new people here! Make cool shit with us, it's fun.
Elitism is p much dead, which is good, i always push people to show their stuff. I'm way more excited for the first release from a person i just met at revision then the big name releases. (well, not really, it's different, you get what i mean)
Make all the things, release all the things, let's enjoy all the things!
And to the point of the thread, reasons to join the scene have changed over the years, some people get interested, some don't, it's all good. Happy to have new people here! Make cool shit with us, it's fun.
Also I always have mixed feelings about the format of releases.. For PC/Windows is still damn EXE+bunch of DLLs that are not always included/compatible. Often only tested on one GPU and even there probably stops working after major drivers update. Another reason why platforms like Shadertoy wins.
I wonder what newcomers think about that.
I wonder what newcomers think about that.
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For PC/Windows is still damn EXE+bunch of DLLs
That's still what fundamentally constitutes a program on most operating systems. What is the alternative? You mention Shadertoy, but the web browser is a different "platform", so it's a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.
Also, if that is killing the scene, scene would have already died 25 years ago when DOS demos ran on exactly the one PC they were made on (it was probably much worse than today). I'd argue that this obstacle is not too high for anyone that is actually curious about the scene. If you are deterred by that, you were probably not all that interested anyway.
Titus my old friend :)
From "our" "old" point of view within the structures we were used bo be ( and the people around ) it seems really that the scene is getting smaller. Some are married, have children and aren´t anymore deeply interested into the scene. So this point of view keeps some truth.
Other "sub cultures" formed, and got - at least interested into that "Scene Thingy" - Few Years ago i friended up with a guy from the engineer and technican section. He wasn´t not aware of such thing like a "Demoscene" nor was he ever on a party or aware of it. I brought him to a scene party and he was impressed about the colorfull, weird, and cute things going on there. It all ended in a project that brought fresh energy and a place where technicans and "digital artists" are present and having a cross over. Further we held regular meetings in our hometown there were people can educate and develop their own things. The Scene "we" know might vanish or .... hm evolve.
It feels sad somehow that things arent like on Evoke 2000 or in the 90´s or even that the times are not the same but anyhow its good to know that new people are present and they might add and form their interpretation of the Scene. Something that exists for nearly 40 years is supposed to change.
What can we do ? beeing kind to new people, beeing helpfull and at least beeing not arogant when they present their things that might not meed #highenddemo of #highend crew. Scene is changing, that´s ok and if new will be added we should be open for that.
From "our" "old" point of view within the structures we were used bo be ( and the people around ) it seems really that the scene is getting smaller. Some are married, have children and aren´t anymore deeply interested into the scene. So this point of view keeps some truth.
Other "sub cultures" formed, and got - at least interested into that "Scene Thingy" - Few Years ago i friended up with a guy from the engineer and technican section. He wasn´t not aware of such thing like a "Demoscene" nor was he ever on a party or aware of it. I brought him to a scene party and he was impressed about the colorfull, weird, and cute things going on there. It all ended in a project that brought fresh energy and a place where technicans and "digital artists" are present and having a cross over. Further we held regular meetings in our hometown there were people can educate and develop their own things. The Scene "we" know might vanish or .... hm evolve.
It feels sad somehow that things arent like on Evoke 2000 or in the 90´s or even that the times are not the same but anyhow its good to know that new people are present and they might add and form their interpretation of the Scene. Something that exists for nearly 40 years is supposed to change.
What can we do ? beeing kind to new people, beeing helpfull and at least beeing not arogant when they present their things that might not meed #highenddemo of #highend crew. Scene is changing, that´s ok and if new will be added we should be open for that.
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That's still what fundamentally constitutes a program on most operating systems. What is the alternative?
Sure, I know. It's not a problem of demoscene per se, I just really hate windows executables in general. The alternative is compilation from the source.
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There is always some talk that there are less and less new people joining the scene and I wonder how many these actually are. I would consider myself rather new and I love the demoscene! So here I have a few questions that are on my mind:
1. What are we already doing to attract newcomers/to reach out?
2. What are your thoughts and ideas we could do to attract newcomers/to reach out?
3. To the rather new people out here: How have you become a demoscener?
1. Newcomers come in two flavors - audience and artists. Any scene will by definition be elitist (e.g. Jazz, Linux) - this will attract ppl who care about skill, performance, details, and similar. But attention to detail or artistry (Chinese word for 'skill': Kung-Fu) comes across to audiences too, hence e.g. skilled workers, crafting soothing videos you may call spam but is enthralling. This is not a bad time for the Demoscene at all, this stuff is liked!
2. To reach out tho, to be broad you have to want to bring everyone on board, be inclusive instead of elitist. Those who are intrigued will stay, and the others, you can't really force them. Asimov wrote that teenagers especially want that elusive thing - admiration in the eyes of their peers - and I think it applies to more field and more age groups. The only system that could destroy that desire is societal establishment. Working for subsistence kills the artist in all of us.
Currently retrogamers featuring demos, and Unity coders, are bringing in the numbers in my mind, because they are not doing the 'impossible stuff' yet. Yeah, even if they are not about the pure things (yet?) they appeal to the general interest and some of the audience will stay and want the special interest, skill appreciation and all the other things available in the Demoscene and become artists.
Photon, that's all good points, especially Jazz as a prime example of elitist circle-jerking with the same "Jazz standards" repeated over and over again by Jazz super-stars proclaimed by Jazz experts. There is even better example: International Chopin Festival, where beaten to death piano pieces are painfully trained and replayed by mindless robots with miniscule differences in interpretation. It's surely difficult and impressive, so personally, I'm actually a fan.
In the end, there is one thing most of us can agree on sets the scene apart: our community, that has matured far beyond most other subcultures out there with all its traditions, know-how transfer, own trends and subcultures. And that's a great selling point in outreach. Hey, Wikipedia didn't manage to become Cultural Heritage, we did, just sayin'.
When we go and hold an intro talk about the scene, it's not to bring in the masses. But to perhaps, every tenth or twentieth time, spark that 16y/o's (or 35, whom am I to care) interest when we say "Hey, there is a whole, international awesome bunch of people out there that are weird, lovable tinkerers just like you. So just stop by next time the circus is in town, or let us know if you wanna come along for a ride."
(Not enough love and credit can be given e.g. to Outline's party reports, viscid's Revision pictures, dipswitch's Got Papers? or ps' Teach Yourself Demoscene in 14 days, immediately proving we are not just circle-jerkers.)
It's not about them immediately bringing a release in (although that might be awesome), but have them stick around, feel at home and then automatically and organically create something. Because that's what you sooner or later simply do.
I like the suggestion on having more fast- and on-site activity compos, perhaps even especially aimed at first-timers and perhaps as a new format for "interested citizen" tours... certainly something to keep in mind when especially smaller parties can effort to finally go back to IRL.
When we go and hold an intro talk about the scene, it's not to bring in the masses. But to perhaps, every tenth or twentieth time, spark that 16y/o's (or 35, whom am I to care) interest when we say "Hey, there is a whole, international awesome bunch of people out there that are weird, lovable tinkerers just like you. So just stop by next time the circus is in town, or let us know if you wanna come along for a ride."
(Not enough love and credit can be given e.g. to Outline's party reports, viscid's Revision pictures, dipswitch's Got Papers? or ps' Teach Yourself Demoscene in 14 days, immediately proving we are not just circle-jerkers.)
It's not about them immediately bringing a release in (although that might be awesome), but have them stick around, feel at home and then automatically and organically create something. Because that's what you sooner or later simply do.
I like the suggestion on having more fast- and on-site activity compos, perhaps even especially aimed at first-timers and perhaps as a new format for "interested citizen" tours... certainly something to keep in mind when especially smaller parties can effort to finally go back to IRL.
(Hihi. "Matured", she says. I know. :-> )
like cured ham...
Demoscene is what u / we / i / they make of it.
A wonderful place for self-expression and/or self-development.
For lifelong friendships, competition, education, networking and so much more.
I enjoy seeing people grow and evolve.
Sometimes, yes, i see people doing vice versa - but thats a different story ;-)
Okkie:
I agree and disagree. As a platform, the demoscene bars arent high. You can release whenever, whatever you want.
But i see that newbies are afraid on one hand, when they see high polished products and motivated "i want to do THIS!!!" the same time.
Thing is, that we all, the more experienced sceners are the ones helping them in being more self confident and that releasing non-polished, unperfect products are totally okay in the scene because we all want this steps of evolution to see!
i started doing music a few years ago and my tracks still suck major imho, but i learn doing things and many sceners started helping. Unasked. They gave me hints and tricks and encouraged me to go on. But they needed to know that i do at least something.
So to the new members of the scene:
Release what you have. It doesnt matter if you think its good.
Contribute and be seen. You will be surprised about the feeback you get.
Anyhooo...
When we all start to connect with new members of the scene, like Alcatraz did with slerpy back in the days for example, there is no doubt that we continue to grow.
In numbers and personally.
Now back to basics:
HALLO!
A wonderful place for self-expression and/or self-development.
For lifelong friendships, competition, education, networking and so much more.
I enjoy seeing people grow and evolve.
Sometimes, yes, i see people doing vice versa - but thats a different story ;-)
Okkie:
Quote:
Yeah, the bar is v high. I also know quite some 'new' people that are hesitant releasing stuff.
I agree and disagree. As a platform, the demoscene bars arent high. You can release whenever, whatever you want.
But i see that newbies are afraid on one hand, when they see high polished products and motivated "i want to do THIS!!!" the same time.
Thing is, that we all, the more experienced sceners are the ones helping them in being more self confident and that releasing non-polished, unperfect products are totally okay in the scene because we all want this steps of evolution to see!
i started doing music a few years ago and my tracks still suck major imho, but i learn doing things and many sceners started helping. Unasked. They gave me hints and tricks and encouraged me to go on. But they needed to know that i do at least something.
So to the new members of the scene:
Release what you have. It doesnt matter if you think its good.
Contribute and be seen. You will be surprised about the feeback you get.
Anyhooo...
When we all start to connect with new members of the scene, like Alcatraz did with slerpy back in the days for example, there is no doubt that we continue to grow.
In numbers and personally.
Now back to basics:
HALLO!
“To create is to live twice.”
― Albert Camus.
― Albert Camus.
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WAS?HALLO!
What has the scene done to deserve new people?
Men are only as good as their technical development allows them to be. George Orwell
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What has the scene done to deserve new people?
We have been sheltering homeless cats (yes, every active group has at least one and some have raccoon dogs too) in order to gather enough karma points.
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What has the scene done to deserve new people?
wow.. that's harsh :)
