Suggestions to reunite the demoscene
category: parties [glöplog]
DFox, my problem is that I need you all as audience :)
visiting unexisting parties... now THAT would be a challenge!
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You seem to want to preemptively pushing the blame for further outbreaks to people who were sensitive enough to the topic that they got the vaccine
D.Fox: you mean the people that we don't need to test anymore since they're vaccinated? Numbers wise I don't really see any other realistic scenario with the vast majority of people becoming vaccinated and the fact that transmission seems to be less and less affected by vaccination while at the same time promising "back to normal" and no testing for those exact people? So far I also haven't gotten an answer regarding my previous question of continuing to run a party despite someone testing positive, vaccinated-only guests or not? Right now it's not even clear how long those vaccinations are effective and what the decay is on them, yet it feels like all some of you care about is having that stamp/qr-code to identify who's "a good person" and who's not rather than to actually trying to mitigate risks for anyone.
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And why tf are people nagging about that digital vaccination certificate / app? Not the point. Bring some official statement or your vaccination pass...
with regards to single EU / common law, the vaccination pass is the same as the digital vaccination cert. they're equal. bring either one - ther'll be a qr code on the official statement/pass that matches the dvc if you're in the EU.
@Bifat: you can send it on floppy first.. who needs a party to release a TEK demo right? :D
LJ:
Fair point. So there's a range of sensible behavior both in the groups of vaccinated and unvaccianted people.
The limited effectiveness of the existing vaccines (if seen wildly varying numbers) against the delta variant is an issue, but it is still a lot better than nothing. And I expect adjusted mRNA shots that target delta in 2022.
The issue with "let's just test everybody" apart from cost and effort (for example, we decided against testing 1,500 people daily over the course of a 4-day event) is that tests age quickly, PCR tests take a while and cost quite a bit, and quick tests don't sufficiently detect the delta variant AFAIK.
Also I somehow get the impression that some people _demand_ entrance to a demoparty while choosing not to get vaccinated if they could. This is not how it works. If you don't like the rules which I assume to exist to protect everybody's health (including yours), then a somewhat larger demoparty is not the place for you at the time.
This is a bit heart-breaking for orgas as well, mind you.
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[…]the vaccinated who'll pay less and less attention to hygiene rules because they're "immune" now[…]
Fair point. So there's a range of sensible behavior both in the groups of vaccinated and unvaccianted people.
The limited effectiveness of the existing vaccines (if seen wildly varying numbers) against the delta variant is an issue, but it is still a lot better than nothing. And I expect adjusted mRNA shots that target delta in 2022.
The issue with "let's just test everybody" apart from cost and effort (for example, we decided against testing 1,500 people daily over the course of a 4-day event) is that tests age quickly, PCR tests take a while and cost quite a bit, and quick tests don't sufficiently detect the delta variant AFAIK.
Also I somehow get the impression that some people _demand_ entrance to a demoparty while choosing not to get vaccinated if they could. This is not how it works. If you don't like the rules which I assume to exist to protect everybody's health (including yours), then a somewhat larger demoparty is not the place for you at the time.
This is a bit heart-breaking for orgas as well, mind you.
LJ: a positive test of a vaccinated person probably means the same as for an unvaccinated person. I have to read up on the legal text about that so that's why I can't provide you with and answer to that.
Yet you still only throw assumptions of neglect around. And if the tone stays that negative I have a hard time to justify investing my limited time researching the potential implications of that, I'm sorry.
My guess would be that test requirements in a vaccinated group are not as strict (if they even exist) as for the other group. Also my assumption for my thoughts were that people will act in their best way after a party. Which means isolating and trying to minimize risk of infecting others after an event. If that is not a given, then there's no reason to do any gathering of any group or amount of people possible.
Yet you still only throw assumptions of neglect around. And if the tone stays that negative I have a hard time to justify investing my limited time researching the potential implications of that, I'm sorry.
My guess would be that test requirements in a vaccinated group are not as strict (if they even exist) as for the other group. Also my assumption for my thoughts were that people will act in their best way after a party. Which means isolating and trying to minimize risk of infecting others after an event. If that is not a given, then there's no reason to do any gathering of any group or amount of people possible.
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my problem is that I need you all as audience :)
No disrespect, but y'know, that's been glaringly obvious for some months now.
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No disrespect, but y'know, that's been glaringly obvious for some months now.
rofl
havoc, gosh, you got me! I meant for the demos. Teh demos! ;)
LJ: let me clarify it once more in more detail what the goals of the organizers should be:
- Limit the risk of infection of anybody partaking in the event. Organizers, visitors, suppliers, staff etc.
- Limit the risk to the event itself, be it from a financial or an image standpoint. Because, let's be clear - a party that has an outbreak of anything will have a tainted image and the risk of that event never taking place again is higher. I remember yells of boycott for various parties in the past for people having diarrhea or the flu after the event. Imagine what happens if covid spreads at your event.
- What happens after somebody leaves the event is beyond the control of the organizers. So we HAVE to put faith in our visitors to do the right thing afterwards. We might even have them sign a piece of paper which frees us from possible problems further down the road (kind of what doctors do before an examination or procedure).
So will all of this be worth it do organize a party? I don't know - we will see what happens in the coming months and years and will have to decide if it's worth taking those risks or not.
- Limit the risk of infection of anybody partaking in the event. Organizers, visitors, suppliers, staff etc.
- Limit the risk to the event itself, be it from a financial or an image standpoint. Because, let's be clear - a party that has an outbreak of anything will have a tainted image and the risk of that event never taking place again is higher. I remember yells of boycott for various parties in the past for people having diarrhea or the flu after the event. Imagine what happens if covid spreads at your event.
- What happens after somebody leaves the event is beyond the control of the organizers. So we HAVE to put faith in our visitors to do the right thing afterwards. We might even have them sign a piece of paper which frees us from possible problems further down the road (kind of what doctors do before an examination or procedure).
So will all of this be worth it do organize a party? I don't know - we will see what happens in the coming months and years and will have to decide if it's worth taking those risks or not.
The concerns that need to be addressed are:
- How will a possible vaccination restriction reflect on visitor numbers?
- How will the identity verification deter people from visiting?
- How will the (wilingly or unwillingly) excluded groups of people react to those new rules?
I have no answers to those questions until we do it and find out. Maybe the outrage is minimal - maybe it's massive.
Will we fail while trying to do something during these times? Potentially
Does all of that mean that we should not even try to make something happen? Certainly not.
- How will a possible vaccination restriction reflect on visitor numbers?
- How will the identity verification deter people from visiting?
- How will the (wilingly or unwillingly) excluded groups of people react to those new rules?
I have no answers to those questions until we do it and find out. Maybe the outrage is minimal - maybe it's massive.
Will we fail while trying to do something during these times? Potentially
Does all of that mean that we should not even try to make something happen? Certainly not.
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Yet you still only throw assumptions of neglect around.
D.Fox: I'm not, on your list of con's for allowing tested people or requiring testing from everyone to enter a party you listed this:
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One positive (or false positive) result will end the party immeditately for all participants and might mean monetary loss for the organizers as well as damaging the image of the party (amongs frustration etc. no all accounts)
Either way afaik the currently mandated methodology literally states "vaccinated, tested or cured" hence vaccinated or cured = not tested. You may implement both, but plenty of others all across the economy wont. Mathematically it's silly to think that what will probably end up to be 80-90% of the population having 30-40% less chance of transmission due to vaccination of which a substantial percentage will slowly lower their guard regarding hygiene and who'll have a lot easier time to participate in any kind of bigger events will outnumber the 5-15% of literal covid deniers who don't give a hoot.
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havoc, gosh, you got me! I meant for the demos. Teh demos! ;)
Well that's fine with me, you make some nice demos.
But the problem here is that we're discussing a political topic that goes far beyond the demoscene. Let's imagine for a second that we on this forum reach an agreement on what would be an acceptable-for-all access policy for all demoparties. I print it out and take it to the owner of the partyplace we're renting. Will the owner will then kindly thank us for the effort we put into this document and accept the demoscene's agreed-upon policies? Of course not, he's going to tell me where the recycling bin is so I can throw away that useless piece of paper, and explain what the rules are that we have to follow that the Dutch government has imposed on him. Whatever those may be at that time, that's what we'll have to deal with, it is what it is.
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This is not the first time I read this argument but just so we're clear here, this implies that if someone tested positive at a vaccinated only party you'd still continue it, risking infecting the majority of the guests. If you weren't then all you do to mitigate that problem is ... not testing, so just shutting your eyes and be like "if I don't know about it it's not my responsibility"?
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yet it feels like all some of you care about is having that stamp/qr-code to identify who's "a good person" and who's not rather than to actually trying to mitigate risks for anyone.
If those are not assumptions of neglect, I don't know what they are, sorry.
You know there is a way to formulate a question without assuming (and already phrasing a negative answer) at the same time, yeah? :-)
I react very badly to that kind of phrasing, just to clarify.
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hence vaccinated or cured = not tested
This is where we stand today, yes. I don't imagine that it will stay that way for much longer though.
I hope you see the weird wedge the organizers who are discussing here are in. One side WANTS us to neglect the officially mandated procedures, the others want us to do MORE than the mandanted procedures. So it is a tough sea to maneuver in and I fear that none of the already existing threads or further discussions will please all (or any) of those groups.
So it's getting tedious being attacked from both sides while just trying to think of some ways of getting a party organized.
Maybe you should bash it out among yourselves first and set some sensible goals of "what do we want". And then we can discuss those issues. But even then I don't think we will ever all come together to a solution that will please everyone.
So yeah, us organizers will have the job of trying to provide a great and safe experience while being attacked from all sides. Doesn't seem fair, does it? :-)
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Arab, I'm catching deadly viruses on a daily basis, and so far I've fended them all off.
Bifat: things are not always about you, you and you. It's about protecting other people too, fragile people, it's about looking out for them.
Those rules are not here to accommodate all your wishes and make sure your "my freedom, my body, my choice" attitude doesn't get offended, they are here to protect people, to ensure they can have fun safely and they don't bring back something that could be lethal for someone in their family (kids, parents, grand-parents, immunocompromised people)
I fail to see what's so hard to understand about that.
I'm not trying to attack you and I didn't count you as "some of you" regarding the second quote, at least not for the latter part of it. I'm merely, with both of the statements you quoted challenging the "vaccination = no testing = safety" mentality that's being propagated by the official mandate and most people implementing it, despite the current data showing that that's not necessarily enough and future data regarding immunization decay and transmission rates still being out.
I believe this thread and the ones before are exactly that though (despite some bashing attempts in either directions), trying to figure out what we want, that being said though, again, right now with the situation being ever changing it'll be impossible to really come to any long lasting conclusions.
I believe this thread and the ones before are exactly that though (despite some bashing attempts in either directions), trying to figure out what we want, that being said though, again, right now with the situation being ever changing it'll be impossible to really come to any long lasting conclusions.
I would suggest vaccinated-only with valid anti-gen test made within 24h - it's free and easy to do them in Germany, what's the big deal?
The biggest problem I can foresee are hyped individuals that will be willing to ignore small symptoms and come anyway with "I don't feel sick, it's just a small cough" or "I was sick last week, but now I'm completely cured" mentality, especially if they already prepaid for ticket/train/hotel etc... that's why you definitely need anti-gen test - at the very minimum!
The biggest problem I can foresee are hyped individuals that will be willing to ignore small symptoms and come anyway with "I don't feel sick, it's just a small cough" or "I was sick last week, but now I'm completely cured" mentality, especially if they already prepaid for ticket/train/hotel etc... that's why you definitely need anti-gen test - at the very minimum!
LJ: ok, understood, thanks for clarifying.
Anyway: can't wait for the epsilon variant of the virus and this discussion ;-)
Anyway: can't wait for the epsilon variant of the virus and this discussion ;-)
I believe a very common misunderstanding as of today is that non-vaccinated people solely carry the risk of getting the virus and everyone else does not. That would only be the case If vaccines would be 100% effective, which they unfortunately aren't. Vaccines are a risk mitigation thing.
So, it's the same for Party organizers (usually). You perform an optimization to provide an event for as many people as possible, as close to a non-pandemic experience as possible with the lowest risk possible for attendees.
This already complex equation is additionally spiced up with external factors like laws and of course what your venue allows you to do, all finally garnished with your Team-Power and - financial possibilities.
You/we do the math.
So, it's the same for Party organizers (usually). You perform an optimization to provide an event for as many people as possible, as close to a non-pandemic experience as possible with the lowest risk possible for attendees.
This already complex equation is additionally spiced up with external factors like laws and of course what your venue allows you to do, all finally garnished with your Team-Power and - financial possibilities.
You/we do the math.
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I might be mistaken, but an outbreak among vaccinated people may be traced back to the party as well, even without testing at the party itself and the party making it to its scheduled end. Chances of that to happen aren't so low, apparently, and unfortunately.- Limit the risk to the event itself, be it from a financial or an image standpoint. Because, let's be clear - a party that has an outbreak of anything will have a tainted image and the risk of that event never taking place again is higher. I remember yells of boycott for various parties in the past for people having diarrhea or the flu after the event. Imagine what happens if covid spreads at your event.
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Quote:I might be mistaken, but an outbreak among vaccinated people may be traced back to the party as well, even without testing at the party itself and the party making it to its scheduled end. Chances of that to happen aren't so low, apparently, and unfortunately.- Limit the risk to the event itself, be it from a financial or an image standpoint. Because, let's be clear - a party that has an outbreak of anything will have a tainted image and the risk of that event never taking place again is higher. I remember yells of boycott for various parties in the past for people having diarrhea or the flu after the event. Imagine what happens if covid spreads at your event.
I wasn't limiting the potential of an outbreak to unvaccinated people, obviously.
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"As of July 2021, Epsilon is no longer considered as a variant of interest by the WHO.[2]" [nor variant of concern, apparently] Guess we dodged that bullet! :DAnyway: can't wait for the epsilon variant of the virus and this discussion ;-)
At some point the greek alphabet will be exhausted at which point we can stop worrying!