pouët.net

krill: In this case I have to apologize for being wrong. Bifat indeed is on that list. You haven't registered yourself for DL2019, though :)

In this case I'd however suggest you both discuss your disagreements inside the DL organizers team internally, instead of ranting on a public thread which is meant to discuss the party itself.

I seriously respect the courage and effort to host ANY real-life event in this day and age and can not see how anyone can blame the organizers for choosing a medically, lawfully (yes my english is leaving me here) safe way to run such an event (and run it in a "conscience-clean way" too). Remote participation makes sense and might help, but trolls are probably gonna complain anyway...

Unfortunately I was excluded from the discussion for alleged "Corona denial".
In so far it appeared like an appropriate place, also for pulling a few triggers on kb :-D

If anti-vaxxers want to go to a demoparty so badly, then they should just organize their own party, no vaccinated people allowed.

With the inevitable divide of the crowd as a given, a possible conclusion in favour of having physical demoparties despite a pandemic would then be at least three kinds of party.

- One to implement the minimum required measures mandated by local law, to the T, and stop there.
- The other to add restrictions on top of that as organisers and intended audience wish.
- The third would be illegal.

But when taking location out of the picture (consider demo parties physically taking place wherever possible), this distinction becomes rather blurry with regard to any given set of measures. 🤔

My idea for sitting out the *demic would be to have a plethora of small (preferrably outdoor or half-outdoor) venues such as e.g. Decrunch, UC, Atwoods, and to use whatever niche may be open at a given time, always exploiting respective freedoms to the maximum (details up to the organizer's discretion of course), and to close down completely during times while it's most distressing for people and bearing the greatest risks of division and animosity. Like nicely exemplified. October 2021 seems to me like the worst time in the *demic so far in this regard, in this country. There needs to be as much personal contact as possible to sort out the online cruft that accumulates in the heads from media and social media use.

And with infections despite vaccination being a thing, perhaps have generally shorter parties, move the main events closer to the first 24 hours of the party, then maybe have an overall somewhat anticlimatic order, so that in the unfortunate event of having to prematurely end a party once a positive result rolls in, most of the show isn't missed before having to self-quarantine...? =)

I'd never do a party based on the minimum required measures mandated by local law. A lot of the regulations here in Germany had been completely idiotic and unreasonable. No, do not put thousands of people singing and yelling into a football stadium just because it's legal, and no, do not put people unmasked into churches signing etc.

The minimum required measures typically are based on lobbying work. In Germany the majority voters are 50+ years up, which is why laws are designed for those who are 50+ years up. That's why the wonderful open air playground for kids is still closed, but doing a wine fest with 500 people without any testing is fine.

Sorry for that rant.

So, the route to go is to add custom restrictions that make actually sense for our setting and setup, which is very different from what authorities know. At an outdoor demoparty like UC social distancing can be enforced, aerosols do float away, mask wearing helps in dense situation, and daily testing makes sense to catch the worst-case situation. The risk management in this case says "the worst-case is terrible, it means aborting the party and have everyone get PCR tested and quarantined", but statistical analysis will tell you that this is a tiny remaining risk, and that other risks are much more likely to happen. For example a huge tree crashing on you, nearly killing multiple people, like it happened at UC11.

In in hall situation all of this is very different. Here my risk management assumption would be: If one infected person arrives, everyone will be infected at the end of the party. That means if you have non-vaccinated people there, there is a small but significant chance of someone losing his life due to you having done this party.

Now, if your risk management says "infections are not very likely but still a significant risk compared to other risks a hall brings", this means you need assume this worst case happens.

I have been to a Festival last week (which turned out to have a bad security concept). My assumption was that there is a certain likelyhood of me coming back infected, with me actively accepting that risk.

When I am going to Deadline, again I expect that I might get infected, and will not complain to anyone in case I will be. It's active risk management, it's a risk I am willing to accept.

Of course I would highly prefer more outdoor demopartys and meetings, as those give so many additional options and allow you to have a risk management system which allows non-vaccinated people to join (unless you don't want this for political or ethical reasons). But as we know right now weather is total drama in most part of the worlds, and most outdoor demopartyies in Europe most likely would either burn down or flooded away or both right now.

TL;DR: There are no easy answers, and no solution will make everyone happy. Every party organizer needs to decide what worst-case scenarios they are going to accept. For some it may be "worst-case only vaccinated people get infected, and that's OK to me and must be OK to anyone joining the party".

I'd like to give a bit of perspective here:

In our state the following are legal:

- Indoor-Events with 350 unvaccinated people, without testing, masks only required when not seated
- Indoor-Events with 5000 unvaccinated people, with testing, masks only required when not seated, all visitors must be pre-registered
- Outdoor-Events with 500 unvaccinated people, without testing, no masks needed if social distancing is provided or people are tested
- Outdoor-Events with 5000 unvaccinated people, with testing, no masks needed if social distancing is provided or people are tested

Which means that outdoor- and indoor-events are handled laregely the same, which is insane, and that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are also handled the same, which again is insane.

Right now doing Revision 2021 tomorrow at the E-Werk with 1000 unvaccinated sceners would be fully legal.

Should that be done? Hell no! So the legal minimum is absolutely nothing that should be the basis of planning a demoparty corona safety concept. It's impossible to create a concept worse than the legal mandate, at least in this state and country.

Not sure if I was clear enough. Big or even medium-sized parties are currently a bad idea in Germany, while the politicians' folly du jour is to foment hatred against unvaccinated people. I'd never show a certificate, any certificate, to enter a demo party, even less so a digital one. If the organizers choose to do so, with all the adverse effects and inevitable criticism, it's at their discretion, but still a bad idea. I wish people at Deadline a good time, I'll be outside, and empty a few crates of beer with them.

Individual that had an infection are usually treated equal to vaccinated individuals, since both have the same results: Antibodies. A vaccination is simply a "simulated" infection to trigger an equal training of the immune system like a real infection.

About aerosols in halls: Is it possible to rent industrial air purifiers for the time of the party?
https://industrial-maid.com/products/industrial-air-purifiers/

> politicians' folly du jour is to foment hatred against unvaccinated people

No politicians needed for that. I don't need politicians helping me judging the character of my fellow human beings.

So you manage to foment hatred against unvaccinated people all by yourself, or what are you trying to say? :-)

Salinga: Yes, air purifiers work well. They do however have a bit of a draw-back: A typical demoparty hall has high ceilings due to need for a big screen, and due to social distancing, you also want lots of space horizontally. To actually have all of the air filtered in due time you will need to make a significant investment. You have a low particle load but a shitload of air to get filtered. And of course right now rental air purifiers are hard to get. For purchased ones, you can roughly calculate with 6 Euros / m³ of room. To take an extreme example: For the E-Werk that probably would be an investment of about 200.000 Euros to make. Not impossible, and probably a good investment for the city to make.

If you have somewhat warm weather outside, constantly replacing the inside with outside air would be far cheaper. I'd been part of a non-demoscene-related event last July that worked like this. You can even easily measure if your concept is working by simply measuring the CO2 levels instead at various places. If it's below ~400 ppm constantly your concept is working, else it is not.

But of course this concept will not help you for doing a party in December in Germany, of course, as the re-heating cost of the outside air would be far too high.

Was that really necessary. Can we please stop with the polemics for a while?

This isn't a discussion about what anybody thinks about people not sharing their conviction about vaccination, or how to ostracise them.

The relevant question is how to effectively make this a non-issue for demo parties in the foreseeable future, so we can get back to our shared passion.

Same here for the first part, but i've been wondering about the latter - specifically what constitutes "outside" in this case - both physically and metaphorically.

With the vitriol thrown about in every direction, with complex multidimensional stances and personal backgrounds being reduced to a single binary digit, where will the magical visible or invisible cordon run?

Step one would be not to alienate the VERY select minority of demoparty organizers that are still willing to organize demoparties, but support them, even if you don't fully agree with their security concept.

Keep in mind: The standard these days is to not even think of a security concept even if you have a spacious location with outdoor area, but just say "we'll do it online for another year. and another year".

I'd call this expectation management.

The deadline organizers deserve praise, as do the function organizers, as do the silly venture organizers (the list goes on). Getting such an event done has never been harder than it is today. So go support your local reallife-demoparty. Go there. Release your stuff there.

Yes organisers deserve praise for organising a demoparty nowadays. But if you are going to make a controversial decision you should be able to take the heat as well.

Agreed, but there seriously was thrown too much shit towards the Deadline organizers. For now motivating demoparty organizers to create events again should be the priority, even if you do not agree with their security concept, and even should you feel excluded by that concept, as much as that might hurt.

It helps switching perspective: I'd go visit a party with a sub-par security concept, because I know that I myself am acting responsibly (I am vaccinated, would get still get tested before and after the party, would socially distance), and therefore I would not be a risk to others. But changing perspective, as a party organizer I would not expect all visitors to act like this, and therefore be far more paranoid about said security concept.

Also, these days you need to expect your parties to be much smaller than what they used to be, and to potentially also have less organizers at hand. A full-blown security concept that covers everything and would allow non-vaccinated people to also take part safely is an enormous undertaking. At UC11, if you count all measures and workarounds together, more than 40 Euros per visitor was spent on the security concept.

With every party that runs, lessons will be learned, and organizers might feel more confident or less paranoid.

Nice intel to share!

Maybe just maybe I now get my hopes up for a fysical Revision in 2022 /o\

strongly considering running a large area outdoor event next year in northern finland, as i have a 17hectare location to use,

nosfe: but how many hours walking to the nearest toilet? or can i shit in the woods with the bears?

maali: The mosquitoes will eat you alive before you see any bears.

What I fail to understand is this: If these vaccines are so great, why are (some) vaccinated people so afraid of being around unvaccinated people?

Gabbie: slept through your high school probability math classes?