pouët.net

No, it's not okay.

Saying you personally don't like something is way better than saying something is bad.
In every aspect of life ... not just in the demoscene.

I'm sorry I know I was banned but I find this topic too important to not contribute:

I think that it is very important for CoC to require that every demoscene group should have at least one LGBT member, and every prod should have at least one LGBT reference in it. I know there are one-man prods and even one-man groups which at first might seem difficult to comply with such CoC, but if you think about it, such one man groups/prods are about challenge, and raising a bar just a tiny bit higher to show support for the minorities by declaring oneself as a non-binary person shall be doable (especially that LGBTXYZ is such a wide spectrum that everyone shall be able to find oneself included).
As for the references, I know there are shameful cases like Hollywood where all they could do in the last Star Wars movie was some weeny lesbian kiss scene flashing for a second, but I believe that demoscene is so much better than that! Instead of flashing the rainbow flag for 500ms I encourage everyone to depict a full blown LGBTXYZ!@# love act ending with at least a prolapse. Might be hard to fit the atmosphere of every demo but hey, don't be that guy, lets show the world how friendly, inclusive and full of love community this is!

No. When something is objectively bad or even plain wrong, saying "i don't like it" is just silly, it implies that it's somehow ok eventhough its bad or plain wrong. Some things arent about taste or personal feelings.

Yeah right.. let‘s sugar coat everything.. what a perverse attitude.

What‘s wrong with clearly stating (in a non-rude way ofcourse) that something is objectively bad and explaining the reasons why? Constructive criticism you know..

I‘d rather prefer to get some well-grounded criticism that helps me improve than some half assed „not my cup of tea personally. Jsyk. Kbye.“

Oh.. +1 groepaz :)

hi I miss KFMF I found a whole bunch of music on the canceled Unreal PSX or Unreal Public Beta I was lead here by Wikipedia on KFMF... :( Great music BTW plus pysol fc music should be uploaded here!

@spike: There is no relationship between one and the other. You can OF COURSE give constructive criticism, but you should not say »This is shit«, because it doesn't help anyone.

Words like "good" or "bad" are always subjective. That is, something is good or bad only according to certain principles or criteria. When someone says that something is good, he (or she) is always making some kind of ethical judgment. And if someone says that something is "objectively good" then she (or he) is saying that the ethical judgement that is being applied is (according to her or his opinion) shared by most people or deserve to be shared universally (like the Golden Rule, etc).

So if someone says "this demo is bad" you hear a subjective opinion. It is not necessary to add "in my opinion". It is always an opinion. You should ask something like "why do you think this demo is bad?" and then you can hear some ethical argument that you might or might not refute.

Remember this when criticizing or receiving criticism.

Yes it is and you should not overthink this.
Or shall we aswell remove the THUMBS DOWN option here on pouet?

Demoscene was always a competitive community and as i said in the beginning of this thread, when you compete you know that some reactions might "seem" harsh.

I dont know were the demonisation of the scene all of a sudden comes from.
Bullying is one thing, saying that some product suxx is another.

First and foremost: I'm HEAVILY against CoCs in the scene. Most party rules cover for the essential things already. We're not kids, we can handle the rest altogether :D

I think a lot of people are overreacting to the text!
It's NOT a code of conduct. Personally i did not read it as strict "Do and Dont", but as a reflection and pointing at some things we all might have done "innocently" at times that are in fact hurtful (and you never knew coz nobody told you!).

I find it interesting how the example sentences in the text are subtle and friendly but actually hide a moral bomb for the other person on second read. When it happens once it's probably fine, but even I heard those sentences so they're NOT rare!

Now the question is how many people did we lose to such tiny harmless sentences and behaviors? How many just quit silently because they felt out of place?
We might not care and applaud having thicker skin (which sure can prove useful), but not all are made of that wood. And maybe the ones we lost could have been great addition!

I really think it's easy to fix with a bit more empathy. (The whole text is just an exercise on empathy).
Once you realize it, you process it and it becomes a new "normal". And I fail to see where the loss is in the process :D Oh an nobody is perfect, we all WILL fail. But I bet when it happens, if someone points it back we'll be able to see where it comes from and wont feel bad being pointed at it.
I'd better have someone point me at an accidental phrasing than waving goodbye to scener (new or not) because of something I said that I will forget 5 minutes after.

I think the text's perspective is enriching! And it doesnt removes or prevents anything in the actual scene that is related to the scene activity.

So why it might be good that it exists?
As a statement!
Even if it doesnt change behavior (because apparently we dont need to change anything) it gives an insight that we're collectively in goodwill.
It might be obvious for you all that the scene is inviting, because you've been there for a long time. But honestly it's not exactly apparent from the outside :D Remember that as unfair as it is, "the image we project is not always what we are".

So yeah, WE ARE INVITING :D We're friendly, we like skills (start something, anything, and you can train and learn along), we friendly compete (and all started from the bottom, it's ok to rank last, we all did), we're a majority of european white males (but dont assume gender, skin colors or location is a barrier to us), we dont care who you date (just bring them along and make them sceners too ? :D), be who you are (you are good enough to be in!).

So lets make it apparent for the outside, especially since there's nothing to lose!

That's my 2 cents and train of thought :D

<3

Please, no! On the contrary, never remove the thumb down nor the piggie. We should even add more options. I propose a duck and a middle finger up.



They should do a demo about it instead. Anyway, some posts are fun to read.

alkama: <3

Alkama, great points & fully agree!

That said, once a party requires that people explicitly agree to a text like this before being able to attend, it becomes a code of conduct. There's already been 1 person in this thread who said that they won't attend a demoparty that doesn't have such a requirement. That's a very compelling argument for organizers to make it so.

The reason that scares me is that in non-demoscene tech conferences and organisations, codes of conduct have been used for good as much as for evil. Eg a few years ago NodeJS core maintainer got kicked out for retweeting (once!) the wrong blogger. Last year some tech conference keynote speaker got harassed for putting the 👌 emoji on a slide (!), and so on. That's all pretty scary shit to me. People put their hearts and souls into something, but one out-of-context Twitter outrage tsunami and they're toast.

I don't completely understand the mechanics, but it seems to me that somehow the more you codify people's behavior to one another, the more people find ways to abuse that code. A bit like cheating on a sizecoding compo, but with people.

Demoparties are, for many people, the only place where they feel truly at ease and can "be themselves". I'm afraid that we might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if the cancel culture that permeates so much of society the last few years also makes its way into the demoscene, and people feel they have to watch their every word.

That is not to say that I disagree with this initiative, but it's risky stuff. I think all the good people behind this are well aware of this, but I felt that this hadn't been said yet it this thread.

alkama <3

This is exactly my fear too. I still think freedom of expression can be maintained alongside protection of minorities, but in the case a transgression has occurred the reaction should be proportionate and not rocket fuel for a cancellation brigade.

I think you have nailed the mechanics, skrebbel. Probably that is what people overreacting to that manifesto fear. Nowadays there are too much Code of Conduct, Political Correcness, and superfluous norms. Norms and codes sometimes are used in evil ways, denying responsibilities because they don't need to interpret the situation to apply the code (they simply assume that the code is perfect and there can't be exceptions).

That said, I see overreaction in every side. Why leave the scene or a party just because some jerk said something to you? I might be wrong but I believe that most people attending demoparties are good persons.

because sometimes, people have had enough about things like lynn experienced (and wrote about in her post) that people simply don't want to spend any energy on it, and just leave anad go somewhere else. and that's how you lose talent and potentially great productions

That said - and that might be surprising to some who know me - i am totally pro having a CoC. Why? Because those who feel it is needed will get what they need. For mostly everyone else nothing will change. The twist is: I am sure i am not the only one who _already_ formally agrees to a bunch of things on any party that he will flat out ignore. Should my aim be to stare on Fakers boobs or grab docd's tiny arse - CoC will not stop me. They would - maybe :=)

I totally disagree - one of the most amazing aspects of the demoscene is that people with totally different attitudes/opinions/interests/backgrounds/belief/... are able to have fun together because they share one common thing they admire and promote.

...raving tomatoes?

Then again, i dont want to party with nazis, no matter how much they love demos.

Anakin Skywalker : "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire"

_docd: Yes, in my opinion I would remove the thumb downs on pouet.

Like on most social networks like Vimeo, Soundcloud, Instagram ...

Wow this argument of yours really sucks, would you also run social experiments like most social networks do? Or maybe commercialize the shit out of the user content? Or create a walled ecosystem so nobody can compete and monopoly remains?

Limiting the ability to express ones opinion to neutral and good statements is creating a bubble, a bubble that I'd like to rather not live in. There's quite the difference in scope with those platforms as they try to appeal to as many users as possible because user=money so they aim at creating "a safe space for everyone"TM.

The next step is getting rid of compos or handing out participation trophies...