pouët.net

abductee:

And in regards of Underground Conference 10:

As you might observe on those pictures people are in situations where they are both outdoors and socially distanced. You'll also see that the tables in the "hall" (which is only covered with material which lets air flow through) are grouped based on how people travelled together. And you'll see that when we were dancing, we did also keep enough distance to each other, and when the dance floor got too full, we were wearing masks.

There was one major fuckup, and that was after the opening, when everybody was dancing on stage, which made it impossible to socially distance. I remember immediately afterwards, apologized, and reminded everyone to not do that again, and they didn't.

http://www.slengpung.com/v3_5/show_photo.php?id=32858
http://www.slengpung.com/v3_5/show_photo.php?id=32856
http://www.slengpung.com/v3_5/show_photo.php?id=32857

At that time nobody in the "outside world" came close to those standards. The staff in the nearby restaurant didn't wear masks, schools were open, school busses were packed, people went to churches unmasked etc.

And we've all learned since then.

Stay reasonable, please. Yes, we can apply higher standards than the rest of the world, because we are sceners who tend to over-engineer, but it also doesn't make sense to apply unrealistic standards that are impossible to meet.

Please also keep in mind that this pandemic won't fully go away, and there will be more coming sooner or later. Mother nature is kindly requesting that we go away. Which means we'll have to find methods and standards to be able to live with that situation, finding a balance between being able to enjoy life and have social interaction and not getting killed by a virus.

reptile: Yes. But:



I can certainly say that after 25 years of Underground Conference and 10 years of Breakpoint, this by far is the most complex, hardest and most expensive demoparty I have ever been part organizing. For us it's worth it, even in the likely event of us having to cancel it.

The thing is, that all the best security measures wont help anything, when sceners passionately hug each other on the parking lot on arrival - like it was at UC.

I wish everyone all the best anyway and a good time and i respect what you are trying to do here, like giving some hope and stuff, but I am sorry that im not with the "we need to integrate the virus into our lifes as a life risk and you could get hit by a car aswell and die from it"

No. No. MhmMhm. Nope. No. Hell no.

Anywhooo...lets see what happens until easter.
I´ll expect another 20k deaths in germany and i just hope that theres no one i know around them.

abductee: And let me address your concerns:

I am aware of the microcovid.org calculator and have used it. The key here is a) Air volume and b) Air replacement.

a) Is the reason why we have an oversized hall
b) Is the reason why we have massive air ventilation, which will completely replace all of the hall's air within 30 minutes.

If you put in the those numbers into the calculator it says "yay, well done Kevin!".

(Kevin sadly won't get all want he wants, though: No smelly sleeping hall)

Your additional concerns:



- We have an on-site medic, and free tests. We'll have the best test availability in Germany.
- We recommend to get a travel insurance if you are coming from outside the EU
- It was actually pretty good. And I now know where the problems were.
- That's why we recommend on the website for visitors to boost your immune system prior to traveling. We might make D3, Zinc etc available at the Infodesk, but still have to check if there are any potential legal or health risks with that. Yes, this indeed is a major concern.
- I am simply beating the standards every other thing that's regarded "safe" in Germany has. Also, the concept obviously will be vetted externally to receive a permission from the health department of the city to do it. Nobody in this thread has yet pointed out a calculation error in my back-of-the-envelope calculation. I don't need a scientist for that, just someone who had more lessons in statistics and stochastics than I had ;)
- I don't know much about Formula1, sorry :)

numtek: if this was announced as a viewing party you could regard it as a nice bonus for whoever may be interested in that concept and there would be no disagreement i suppose. but looking at the website it seems that onScene wants to piggyback on revision online's efforts for the majority of the weekend, but also wants to organize their own exclusive (aka: competing) events wherever they feel they can come up with something more interesting. it appears to me that onScene organizers have not yet realized that seen from this angle the "cooperation" they are asking requires quite a lot of extra effort from the revision side but is beneficial almost exclusively to onScene. or maybe they have realized this but feel entitled to revision's support for some reason anyway, i don't know.

On that note, who are they? Is it just three Scamps standing on each other in a trenchcoat?

docd: Everybody I saw was following the "hug life / thug life"-Rule. Which means: You'd first ask the other person if hugging OK or not, same for the "masks off / pants off" Rule. Yes, the final decision was up to the people themselves, they could consent to liking each others face if they wanted. After all we were outdoors, and that's a personal decision.

Hugging is safe, by the way, and we'll highly recommend people to do that. We all very certainly need to hug more right now. It's even more safe when you have a mask on.

We all know most of us sceners have mental problems, and many tend to get into persecution mania. Yes, you (and you know how much I love and respect you), especially you at some point WILL have to work on an exit strategy. You can not keep on like this forever, it's mentally extremely unhealthy, and you know that. I know how much you miss your friends and are suffering. It's reasonable not to be ready for that by April. But if you are not ready for an outside event like UC11 in July, the alternative will be to go see a doctor and start working on that mental problem.

I hope it was OK for you to be that intimate in this thread.

gargaj: Right now we are sixteen organizers, with each of them having a demoparty organizing experience of multiple, in parts up to 25 years, no firsties. Sourced from the Breakpoint/Revision/UC/UNC teams. Once we have finalized the list of orgas and areas of responsibility, I will publish a team list on the website.

Right now while things are this emotional I'll rather not published the list without having the consent on the team. There was a little bit of too much negative emotions thrown into the direction of some of them during the last couple of days. Not everybody is able to stay rational and reasonable during a pandemic.

wow

what reptile said

havoc: The communication with RO's main organizers has been sub-optimal, to say the least. Will not play the blame game, but hope this will be improving.

It has been pointed out elsewhere that onScene could provide a major upside to RO: Competitions are FAR more interesting and lively to both the audience and the artists if you can see and hear feedback from the audience. I've been watching the Hogmanay stream on New Years eve, and the silence was awkward to me, too.

Also, I REALLY dislike the notion of "who owes whom" in this regard. It's evil. Both RO and we do this not because of reason of benefits or profits, but because we love and care for the scene.

And when it comes to me personally, one REALLY should not start about "who owes whom" and who "piggybacks on whom" in regards of Revision. This is not something I usually take my penis out on, but one could ask where the most successful Revision compo concepts are coming from, and who was the biggest funding source for Revision for years. (And I'll not further go into that subject, I hope that was clear enough without causing further tensions).

I really really REALLY hate this "Revision Online vs. onScene" thing. It's mean, and this entitlement thinking is disgusting.

Some of the stuff that was thrown at multiple of onScene's organizers was btw "these organizers are OWNED by Revision".

(Sorry for this emotional response. You've hit a nerve there.)

Okay, I think this thread has reached a level of personal hostility that we all should try to back off for a while and deescalate. I have the feeling that a few things scamp said were a bit uncalled for and not helpful for the cause (so, what reptile said).

Which is, and scamp has stated that several times, is doing something FOR the scene, FOR the sceners. Not about piggybacking or stealing the traditional easter event but rather a kind of symbiosis for the different needs of ppl. And for me, at least, this was clear from the beginning and clearly stated on the website.

Please, make it happen (if possible) and spread more love than hatred. This is 2021, time for a change. Be it.

Yo. I don't take part in pouet-discussions normally, but no. We're not owned. At least not yet.

platon42: In case you are referring to my message to DocD: I think and hope that he'll receive that message in a positive way.

I know that I am speaking about my mental problems far more openly than other people do, but think that DocD also is rather open-minded about it these days.

He's not alone, quite the opposite. I know several other close friends in the scene who over-escalated the "I'll lock myself in"-though massively to a really unhealthy level, and have tried to help multiple of those, and in one case I was able help drastically by motivating that person to go see a Neurologist.

Nobody in here can claim that we as a society are handling the pandemic in a rational way.

In Germany, our politics are half panic, and half "oh we forgot to order the vaccine from BioNTech" / "oh, we know air filters would help, but haven't ordered them for schools".

People being rational and doing active risk assessment are the rare exception right now. Conspiracy theorists are common, people who panic are common, people who are scared of the unknown are common, but people who act rationally... those are much harder to spot.

I'm emotional when it comes to my friends and their well-being, but rational when handling risks of any kind. Luckily an anxiety disorder is not on my long list of mental problems. Hooray!

Pointing out the reasons why RO "owes" you and then saying in the next sentence that you hate "entitlement thinking" seems a bit contradictory tbh.

I haven't brought that up in 11 years. As said, you have hit a nerve there, sorry.

(And I am entitled to hate myself for having such emotions.)

highlight of this discussion so far: bitch telling us he's not someone's bitch! :D

No problem, feelings of entitlement (or not) was not the core of my argument anyway, it's the perspective that matters more I think. You are not wrong about the benefit of having a live audience for certain events but realistically speaking that would require those events to be run from Bingen. Which, without trying to be mean, seems to be a very unrealistic scenario from the perspective of a foreign based RO orga who's responsible for a complex event like Shader Showdown. Not to mention the fact that with unknown visitor number restrictions it is logically also not sure how much of an actual/realistic/representative audience experience onScene could even hope to provide. Whereas we are by now quite experienced and successful in running online-only shows (even if those formats may not "work" for every single individual). So my thinking is that we should rather do well what we know we can do well instead of attempting your proposed experimental hybrid format of which nobody can be sure what actual benefits it'll bring come Easter time.

scamp, I find it very commendable what you are trying to accomplish here by pushing forward on overall safety standards and I can clearly see that you're putting a lot of thought and strategy into making OnScene a possibility.

Why Easter, though? Wouldn't it be a far better idea to schedule the event at a different weekend than Revision Online, even if its duration may be one day less as a result? Hosting OnScene on the exact same days as Revision Online seems more trouble than useful to me.

The virus is not going to go away anytime soon, even with vaccines around it'll still likely be around for years to come. While I agree with you that our society (not only Demoscene) cannot live isolated forever and will eventually have to find ways to cope with the virus in circulation (but also ways to fight it), I'm worried that April'21 may be too soon to go back to hosting real demoparties again :/

Some more thoughts about party safety in in Corona times: I believe that it's not just the organizer's responsibility to stay safe and healthy, every demoscener is responsible for their own actions to some extent (keeping in mind that party organizers are of course liable under law for the safety of all participants when hosting an event). So if you feel sick or just generally uncomfortable with visiting a demoparty that is being offered to you at this point in time, stay the fuck home! It's so simple ;)

scamp, i should have gone back to the page and read it again once you fixed the bug, i did not. clearly my fault, my bad.



there have been 10 ucs, and Breakpoint was running for 8 years.

so, you have not responded to my F1 question(probably did not inform yourself?)
so here's a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhNi0hIeeoY

please pay special attention to 6:18 when he explains what is required of people who are not in a bubble, wich would be applicable for the onScene.

and remember: this concept failed hard: dozenes of staff and 3 drivers got it, including Lewis Hamilton who lived like a hermit.

they drive only a couple of hours on fir/sat/sun - thats a long way away from a demoparty(watchparty) with lets be real 12h+ days, and people getting drunk.

so, again: I fail to see how your concept is better (or even close).

havoc: Oh, integrating the onScene live audience feedback into the RO compo stream would be most easy - we'd simply provide you with a stream of it that you then can mix into the RO stream.

Also, if some RO organizers prefer to produce their compos or other content from onScene instead of their living room, I'd also not see a problem with that.

If you look at it pragmatically instead of ideologically, that is.

SunSpire: My personal passion is Underground Conference.

Every onScene orga sure has its own motivation, but my personal one is that it will damage both sceners and the scene if we have to stay home on Easter Weekend for another year.

This is about having something for Easter Weekend, not establishing another new party. I don't have any interest in that. This is exactly the reason why this is a one-off event. I hope not to have the same problem in 2022, but then to have a Revision again.

I also don't see any "trouble". Nobody has given any explanation why an actual party would collide with a streaming event. Nobody loses anything, everyone wins.

This "why can't you pick some other date than Easter" appears to be more about egos than about a pragmatic view.

(Plus, we all know why Easter Partys happen to be on Easter: Because besides Christmas it's the only Holiday that is universally recognized in the EU.)

Btw: A streaming event doesn't need a long holiday weekend. Nobody has to travel. So the same thing could be said the other way.

But it shouldn't be said. Because it's silly. A streaming event and a party can happily co-exist without problems, but with great benefit.

abductee: I might look at that Formula 1 stuff later, but I am really more interested in the statistics. I know that you would be more than capable to do the maths, I know your skills, but understand that you are rather operating on an emotional level here.

I'll ask someone else later on, so we can put some statistics onto the website for those who are irrational and might want to learn something about active risk management.