pouët.net

p01: I'm not talking about racism or worse, but strongly hierarchical structures as in a lot of the late-80s warez scene ARE a right-wing thing, after all. And here we've got one very obvious example of the leader of one of the leading groups being pretty much that. So yeah, I think the question "WHY did we even do all the stuff with group hierarchies and being 1337 and all" is valid, even if it's not a comfortable question to explore (I mean, I was there, I did all that, and I had fun doing so). Such concepts don't emerge from thin air.

I dunno, the scene I knew back in the late 80s early 90s were not influenced by fascism. Maybe you grew up somewhere where this was the case for you, but where I grew up, it seemed to be all about piracy and competition. Competitions in who could crack and release whatever game first, and who could do the best cracktro, demo, whatever. The hirachy you talk about, was more build on fame than anything. If you cracked allot of games and released allot of them, you had fame, since your intros would be spread to everyone with a c64/amiga. To say the scene is based or formed on the Right wing, is super far fetched, and I'd go as far to say it's spreading false information saying so. But again, I don't know how things were for you.

More details back in 2008 here: https://www.rawstory.com

That sure sounds scary. :)

Saying nazi bullshit in the scene originates from organizational hierarchies of the early warez scene pretty much earns you a gold metal for the world record of long-jumping into conclusions. So, er, congratulations?

kb_: Being in born in 78 and growing up in a tiny, remote village in France, I've had the same feeling as SnC. To me the 1337 attitude came from the competitive aspect of the cracking scene, and working in groups was just natural and easier. I don't know if the "flame wars" and taunting were serious. To me they seemed like part of the competitive attitude but nothing really toxic and personal.

P01: yeah, same to me being in the netherlands. Afaicr groups didn't have strong leaders and hierachy, and were ironically flaming each other.

Break: "saying nazi bullshit in the scene originates from organizational hierarchies" learn to read. I didn't. I said that the organizational hierarchies originate from people who were into organizational hierarchies, and the reason they were might be a bit crap. I never even mentioned "nazi bullshit", I even repeated it's NOT about that. But I accept the silver medal in long jumping to conclusions; you deserve the gold one.

I know most of the flame wars, taunting etc weren't serious or toxic (ok, a handful of people took Elitegroup seriously :D). It would be pretty horrific if they were. Still that stuff _came_ from somewhere. And if we look at the internet today, at the ways eg. the alt-right operate, starting with innocuously looking ideas and then slowly drawing people into their vortex of suck (obligatory youtube link), there are visible similarities. And of course it stopped, and most of us are thank $SUPERSTITION pretty far away from anything that could be seen as fascism. But the general patterns are there, and there's a chance that the scene at large adopted, playfully, far right conventions without really thinking about it. Because hey, we were "unpolitical", so no thinking about politics right here!

Because that shit happens. Right now, all around us. And it would be arrogant to think we're better or immune to this. I don't even say we should change anything, just that perhaps, just perhaps, some of the codes we adopted weren't as innocent as they seemed to our young, unpolitical minds.

(that's what I have to say; if you feel the urge to get defensive coming up and really need to tell to yourself publicly that you, YOU were of course NO nazi - I do, honestly, believe you.)

Mmm. Something to think about... There definitely was a certain near-fascistic attitude about gamers as well, I guess?

Was that a rhetorical hint to gamergate?
Yes, there is a link that got exploited already by Bannon et al.: "You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever and then get turned onto politics and Trump.". We are not so different from gamers. We are not immune. And it is difficult to stand up against that kind of populism online.

I'd caution against calling anything fascist or even "near fascist" (note that I tried to avoid doing so). "Fascism" is a word that has got a pretty clear cut definition, and although treating certain groups of people as not/less-than human is definitely a part of it, it's by far not the only criterion that needs to be fulfilled.

But yeah, in our so called meritocracy there were those who earned their right to be respected, and then the unwashed, uninitiated masses who only consumed. And as fun and games as that was (sorry Yoda :D), I do remember people taking it pretty seriously.

i think you're reversing what fascism and nazism clearly used as mechanism to lure in people for their cause towards a common psychological trait many people have, that is, a need to feel important within a group of peers. having the latter isn't wrong nor political.

While beating Strider, let's not forget the swastika in https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1616 or how https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=2365 was disqualified. Not even mentioning the guys from MAW, one of which was black (go figure).

I'd rather see the effort spent on current problems

kb has a clue.

haha yesterday I was going to joke about kb_ coming to this thread and here he comes.
What a disgrace for demoscene that some ancient insignificant jokeprods made by then-shitheads are judged by todays political correctness.

I'd argue that Nazis were already bad in the 80s and there's enough evidence that the then-shithead is also a now-shithead but that probably makes me a SJW or something.

rutra80: I hope you realize your commit was shit on several levels. :\

one could say a lot about politics and the early scene, and in fact there is a bigger research paper in the works, but let me just say one small thing. of course the silly demo does not attest to strider having any sort of nazi sympathies back then (and i had the privilege to read a lot of internal fairlight newsletters recently, which explicitly attest to the opposite - e.g. one applicant to the group was rejected explicitly for having neo-nazi sympathies).

what one _can_ attest to fairlight and many other groups of back in the days, however, is a vehement political (and moral) nihilism which does bear some structural similarities to later internet phenomena, and it doesn't surprise me at all that certain people from that era ended up as staunch trump supporters.

@groepaz, one member of MAW was black? that really comes as a surprise for me, because MAW scrollers seemed to me a bit too specific to be just teenage provocation (e.g. vocally supporting the neonazi FAP party from back then). is there any more info available on the demographics of MAW, or is this just scene hear-say?

I only met them briefly once at Venlo, and to me they seemed guys who just enjoyed to stir the shit. Coming from the punk camp back then myself, it didnt feel strange at all, provocation on all levels =P

That said, who cares. Spend the effort on solving current problems instead. There are more than enough currently active sceners who spill their WTF on fecesbook and twitter and everywhere else. Fight those.

groepaz, you're absolutely right - but then again, current developments always have a history, and knowing this history, while not being a solution in itself, can at least help dealing with them. in this case, the question of "why certain old sceners are trumpists / conspiracy loons / etc." is not solved by asking "were they or were they not neo-nazis back then?", but "were there certain structures and tendencies in scene history that helped to facilitate this development?".

No, there were not. Nazis were extremely uncommon in the scene (and still are, thank god). And i am not buying the idea that certain "group hirarchies" made anyone become a nazi - thats really a bit far fetched, imho.

yes, i agree with you in both points - both that explicit neo-nazis were extremely rare, and (here i would tend to disagree with kb) that hierarchical structures not necessarily lead into reactionary politics (there are several counter-examples in the history of the labour movement). but the political nihilism of the early scene is definitely something that's worth looking into when one tries to understand these current developments.

I wouldnt even call it "nihilism". I'd call it "14 year old boys". No more, no less :)

Which also means that it's not "political correctness" that prompts people to point out old shitty jokes were indeed shitty, but "growing up" :)