what to do with hates / permanent thumbdowners?
category: general [glöplog]
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I still wish someone explained to me clearly just what it is with the Russian spectrum people and all the drama though. That shit runs deep.
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Also a bit intrigued by the Russian backstory as well. Maybe someone could make a demo about it? Like, in a positive way?
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Right, so can someone explain what the conflict is, if there is one?
So who has got the "balls" to explain? Or is it just some old us vs. them conflict nobody really understands, just the way it's "supposed to be"?
Perhaps it like in that old Flash Gordon comic where he comes to a planet where there is a war fought by robots that have been going on for so long that no one can remember what started the war in the first place? :D
@lvd, it was not only you, but also the people who always thumbs down you as well.
i think, there are too much hatred for this, and it's gone too far, isn't that so?
i think, there are too much hatred for this, and it's gone too far, isn't that so?
Gargaj: what facepalm? just saying don't feed the troll and he'll stop trolling (or keep making an ass of himself). i'm not advocating ostrich behavior for everyone.
i do agree there is a larger issue at hand when the childish behavior transpires to outside the demoscene but its not your problem to fix imho. it's a cultural thing that is deeply rooted in human behavior and our need to communicate (and lack of capacity to do it properly). sure you could police it, or sugar coat it, facebook it, whatever, but at the end of the day the problem is the people, not the website. and youtube is proof people and online forums == flamewars.
so if you're a "victim" of this, my advice is not to waste your time reading what people you repeatedly disagree with write. i automatically skip posts from people who i couldn't care less about their opinion, knowing they'll most likely just be talking crap, but a script might help people with less self-control.
it doesn't solve the problem of pouet's image, but i think that was pretty much lost in 2000 when it was created allowing people to commentate on prods to begin with. imho.
i do agree there is a larger issue at hand when the childish behavior transpires to outside the demoscene but its not your problem to fix imho. it's a cultural thing that is deeply rooted in human behavior and our need to communicate (and lack of capacity to do it properly). sure you could police it, or sugar coat it, facebook it, whatever, but at the end of the day the problem is the people, not the website. and youtube is proof people and online forums == flamewars.
so if you're a "victim" of this, my advice is not to waste your time reading what people you repeatedly disagree with write. i automatically skip posts from people who i couldn't care less about their opinion, knowing they'll most likely just be talking crap, but a script might help people with less self-control.
it doesn't solve the problem of pouet's image, but i think that was pretty much lost in 2000 when it was created allowing people to commentate on prods to begin with. imho.
sq: make a demo uniting the russian speccy scene! :)
It is not possible to explain because the dividing lines are about tastes and beliefs. What good would it do to explain that scener A does not like me because he believes that I am conspiring with sceners B and C against him? You'll just get a long list of "but he", "but he", with no real opportunity for an objective judgement.
What happened in Russia was that this nonsense continued for so long that everyone took side. Some did it because they figured out what is happening in sufficient amount of detail to form an opinion. Some were simply assigned to opposing camps, because they interacted with "wrong people".
The scene is out of joint. Let us not make a demo about it.
What happened in Russia was that this nonsense continued for so long that everyone took side. Some did it because they figured out what is happening in sufficient amount of detail to form an opinion. Some were simply assigned to opposing camps, because they interacted with "wrong people".
The scene is out of joint. Let us not make a demo about it.
ok so if there is no resolution of the conflict that we can hope for, let's go back to the original topic and find a final solution for dealing with the parties in the conflict. my proposal would be:
In middle east thumb up means like "put it up your ass", People only thumbing up is then a problem as well.
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Gargaj: what facepalm? just saying don't feed the troll and he'll stop trolling (or keep making an ass of himself). i'm not advocating ostrich behavior for everyone.
"I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because rogues sometimes rest." /Dumas/
"Don't feed the troll" was an adorably naive / facetious approach instigated mostly by people who are physically incapable of giving a shit, and it's a terrible strategy when it comes to a collective community where 1) you cannot account for everyone and 2) marks are left for everyone to see.
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i do agree there is a larger issue at hand when the childish behavior transpires to outside the demoscene but its not your problem to fix imho. it's a cultural thing that is deeply rooted in human behavior and our need to communicate (and lack of capacity to do it properly). sure you could police it, or sugar coat it, facebook it, whatever, but at the end of the day the problem is the people, not the website. and youtube is proof people and online forums == flamewars.
It is EVERYONE'S problem to fix it, and administrators not only wield the power to actively regulate people like that, but an administrator's actions are representative of the direction of the site, because if the administrators are absent, or indifferent, or actively encouraging or even taking part in it, that will define how the site is viewed by both the existing usership, or newcomers. This applies not only to Youtube (where there's basically no moderation), but to Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, etc (where moderation seems arbitrary at best and actively stupid at worst) as well. I'd rather Pouet not go down on that road.
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so if you're a "victim" of this, my advice is not to waste your time reading what people you repeatedly disagree with write. i automatically skip posts from people who i couldn't care less about their opinion, knowing they'll most likely just be talking crap, but a script might help people with less self-control.
This isn't about disagreement, this is about abuse. There's a point where things stop being "opinion".
we already have the banhammer for the abuse.
we're talking about downthumbing on principle here, that's opinion not abuse imho.
but i'll give you that it's a grey line between opinion and abuse.
the only way you'll ever have everything sanitized is by being extra strict with moderation, which will surely piss more people off, regarding freedom of speech and origins of the scene and such.
i recall an idea for hidding comments by default if you're not logged in, and it getting quite a bit of flak from people who want to read all comments by default and couldn't care less about "image" of the demoscene to the outside world.
it has also been mentioned before to have a comments system like reddit or steam where other users can upvote something for being relevant and downthumb the trolling. but that's extra work which no one appears to have been bothered enough to implement so far, too busy making demos about it to care i guess.
we're talking about downthumbing on principle here, that's opinion not abuse imho.
but i'll give you that it's a grey line between opinion and abuse.
the only way you'll ever have everything sanitized is by being extra strict with moderation, which will surely piss more people off, regarding freedom of speech and origins of the scene and such.
i recall an idea for hidding comments by default if you're not logged in, and it getting quite a bit of flak from people who want to read all comments by default and couldn't care less about "image" of the demoscene to the outside world.
it has also been mentioned before to have a comments system like reddit or steam where other users can upvote something for being relevant and downthumb the trolling. but that's extra work which no one appears to have been bothered enough to implement so far, too busy making demos about it to care i guess.
who cares..
OK. Let us do some case studies.
This is a list of prods where I contributed (this is a very generous list, as some of these contributions are very small): http://www.pouet.net/user.php?who=95769&show=credits. Overall, there are 17 prods and 21 thumbs down. 9 of the thumbdowns are by lvd. Is it opinion or abuse? You decide. I guess it is pretty clear that we are not exactly friends.
This is an electronic gazette "ACNews" made by AloneCoder; many issues can be found here: http://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=12552
Issues #60-#64 are downvoted by g0blinish, denp and MC68k for arbitrary reasons.
Issues #69-#71 are downvoted for VideoMan (the user has been recently banned, but his vandalism is still there in the comments, for everyone to see).
g0blinish says denp is his close friend; some believe denp is clone of g0blinish.
VideoMan, previously banned on Pouet as Medikoment, is actually better known as AAA, who is currently friends with g0blinish.
This prod is contraversal because it was not released with a binary: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=76001. The contraversy is OK; but the state of the comments is not. Let me run some stats for you. There are 46 comments overall. 10 of them are by g0blinish, 7 by VideoMan, 5 by analone (who in my opinion walks and talks remarkably like g0blinish). Basically, half of the comments are spam by 3 haters, who may well be 2 haters actually.
So next time you consider making a joke about the crazy spectrum scene, please consider the fact that actions by just several active and very determined individuals can ruin any scene they happened to choose as their own.
This is a list of prods where I contributed (this is a very generous list, as some of these contributions are very small): http://www.pouet.net/user.php?who=95769&show=credits. Overall, there are 17 prods and 21 thumbs down. 9 of the thumbdowns are by lvd. Is it opinion or abuse? You decide. I guess it is pretty clear that we are not exactly friends.
This is an electronic gazette "ACNews" made by AloneCoder; many issues can be found here: http://www.pouet.net/groups.php?which=12552
Issues #60-#64 are downvoted by g0blinish, denp and MC68k for arbitrary reasons.
Issues #69-#71 are downvoted for VideoMan (the user has been recently banned, but his vandalism is still there in the comments, for everyone to see).
g0blinish says denp is his close friend; some believe denp is clone of g0blinish.
VideoMan, previously banned on Pouet as Medikoment, is actually better known as AAA, who is currently friends with g0blinish.
This prod is contraversal because it was not released with a binary: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=76001. The contraversy is OK; but the state of the comments is not. Let me run some stats for you. There are 46 comments overall. 10 of them are by g0blinish, 7 by VideoMan, 5 by analone (who in my opinion walks and talks remarkably like g0blinish). Basically, half of the comments are spam by 3 haters, who may well be 2 haters actually.
So next time you consider making a joke about the crazy spectrum scene, please consider the fact that actions by just several active and very determined individuals can ruin any scene they happened to choose as their own.
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For those who are wondering what is wrong with angry Russian spectrum people, in a nutshell, let's say, there are some people who maybe have been offended in some ways long time ago, and they have a very long memory and an enormous desire to revenge all their offenders, and all their friends and families as well. i know, sounds creepy, but nobody knows what to do now.
hi introspec! :)
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the only way you'll ever have everything sanitized is by being extra strict with moderation, which will surely piss more people off, regarding freedom of speech and origins of the scene and such.
No, shockingly there's a middleground between being the Gestapo and not giving a shit.
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i recall an idea for hidding comments by default if you're not logged in, and it getting quite a bit of flak from people who want to read all comments by default and couldn't care less about "image" of the demoscene to the outside world.
Because it's stupid. The comments are the scene.
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it has also been mentioned before to have a comments system like reddit or steam where other users can upvote something for being relevant and downthumb the trolling. but that's extra work which no one appears to have been bothered enough to implement so far, too busy making demos about it to care i guess.
It's also a terrible system that rewards controversy instead of quashing it.
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Issues #69-#71 are downvoted for VideoMan (the user has been recently banned, but his vandalism is still there in the comments, for everyone to see).
And everyone can see that the actions had consequences.
I understand your plight, which is why I feel it's a good idea to have it in the open. I also understand that e.g. your case with lvd isn't clean cut, and let's face it, the ZX scene isn't unique with pettiness in some cases where people attack each others' prods because of personal differences.
But honestly, where do YOU see the solution here?
Masagin
hi havoc :) I was sitting on that gloperator log link, like, forever!
I am still mildly annoyed BTW, but thank God YouTube got better at 50fps videos.
@Gargaj, I do not see any solution that would satisfy everyone. I personally do not worry about thumb downs too much, because I believe they serve a very useful purpose. I tend to have enough decent feedback on my prods to not let it get to me. At the same time, ACNews are not universally loved. To have 5 comments at all, with half of them troll-like, must be pretty depressing. So I think it is easier for me to not complain about thumb downs.
However, I do think that meme-wars in the comments have to be moderated in a more strict fashion. As is, the trolls are winning in the sense that the number of people looking at Spectrum prods seems to be steadily decreasing, and I cannot blame people who lose patience with this nonsense. I do not know how to enforce it without inconveniencing everyone else.
I am still mildly annoyed BTW, but thank God YouTube got better at 50fps videos.
@Gargaj, I do not see any solution that would satisfy everyone. I personally do not worry about thumb downs too much, because I believe they serve a very useful purpose. I tend to have enough decent feedback on my prods to not let it get to me. At the same time, ACNews are not universally loved. To have 5 comments at all, with half of them troll-like, must be pretty depressing. So I think it is easier for me to not complain about thumb downs.
However, I do think that meme-wars in the comments have to be moderated in a more strict fashion. As is, the trolls are winning in the sense that the number of people looking at Spectrum prods seems to be steadily decreasing, and I cannot blame people who lose patience with this nonsense. I do not know how to enforce it without inconveniencing everyone else.
who the hell thought that was a good idea?
Maybe we need... more thumbs up?
All we need is love, lalalalala!
unsupported lovetype!!!1
Probably I have not enough balls to write my reasons on 'what happened before' here. Or probably I don't want my messages look like the book of complaints (and what the TS first message very much looks like!)
Anyway, for any real discussion i'm reachable at lvd.mhm(at)gmail.com
Anyway, for any real discussion i'm reachable at lvd.mhm(at)gmail.com
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Anyway, for any real discussion i'm reachable at lvd.mhm(at)gmail.com
No, I'd much rather have it out in the open in the court of public opinion.
Yes, russian speccy drama open once and for all. Though i still think it will remain a mystery.
For last 20 years in Russia they share hateness in all areas of their life.. I am travelling a lot and I must say people are the same in most cases, they are different in different situations/conditions, Russia has a lot of good and kind people, it is the biggest country with hundrents of nation's inside. Hateness is a reaction of some of them to what they have in their lives. And such posts is pleasure for those haters, they've got what they wanted, they are exist and they have evidence of that. So do not concentrate to much on such things and keep doing things you planned to be successful. Usually people who can do nothing dislike, because they feel they can do it better, but reality is they are loosers, who don't want to be successful with hardwork
