RIP Nectarine... AGAIN!
category: general [glöplog]
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If that's the case then, wouldn't it be more reasonable to pass the site to someone else from the community or admin/moderator team?
the straw that broke the camel's back maybe, but let it be known, it is clear to me now from some of the reactions on here tonight that the community is actually extremely toxic and i don't blame anyone for running to the hills.
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Quote:The dispute was clearly a minor one and apparently not so important for the closure. Arab had given some signs about losing his motivation earlier and the dispute was just an opportunity (an excuse?) to make the final move.
If that's the case then, wouldn't it be more reasonable to pass the site to someone else from the community or admin/moderator team?
Yes, that's really all we are asking for.
Some members have made the site their virtual home for years. Friendships made on the Oneliner that translated into meetups at demoparties worldwide. Nearly 40,000 songs uploaded by volunteers - carefully tagged, rated, with appropriate metadata, etc. Custom scripts running alongside the main site that calculated statistics and curated information. And so on.
To have it taken down, without warning or recourse - I fail to see why it's so "toxic" to ask for a different resolution to this.
ok i can understand the sense of loss. that's natural and it's not what i'm calling toxic. it's the sense of entitlement i'm seeing from some people. and it's only been taken offline. we don't know it's all deleted yet.
anyway, you know what, one day the sun will blow up, and then what will you do
anyway, you know what, one day the sun will blow up, and then what will you do
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anyway, you know what, one day the sun will blow up, and then what will you do
MrsBeanbag said:
This is really starting to get amusing. You are putting a LOT of words in my mouth.
I never said that Arab owed us the continuation of this service. If he's tired of the burden of running the site, fair enough. What he does owe this community--and this is what the others are also saying--is the chance to let others take over the service and continue providing it, not to just spontaneously shut it down one day without a word. It's funny how you said "the people who run the website" instead of "Arab," because the truth is that many of the "people who run the website" are the very ones who are incensed by this act and who want to continue providing the site and would be happy to do so even if Arab is tired of running it and wants to back out. But Arab didn't even offer the chance for that--and that's the real problem, despite your (odd) attempts to deflect from that issue. No one has faulted Arab for wanting out of the gig. It's the thoughtless way that he did so that is the problem, the "toxic" act, if you will.
When you say "and it's only been taken offline." Well his own statement had quite the ring of finality to it, did it not? So we're simply responding to what he himself has said. Let's review it, shall we? "Nectarine is no more. It's been fun while it lasted. Now give it a rest. Don't mail me."
Nothing in my reaction was unreasonable, excessive, or toxic. I never called Arab a "bad person," as you accuse me of. I did call his actions childish, inconsiderate, irresponsible, which they are. I'm not the judge of who is "good" or "bad," but I can certain comment on bad actions. And a measure of anger in response to a thoughtless action is completely justified--and my communication simply called out this BS for what it is. There was no flaming or swearing or rage (or whatever might be understood as "toxicity"). I challenge you to quote anything I said that conveys a sense of "entitlement" or anywhere where I demanded that Arab maintain his role of managing Nectarine. If anything, the lack of sharing the managerial role--among a small board of directors perhaps--is part of the problem.
And you further skew my statements when you keep bringing up "mental problems." I never said any such thing and only had to "clarify" because people were twisting what I wrote.
So give this a rest MrsBeanbag. Our frustration is normal, expected, and legitimate; I don't the real problem distorted or distracted from by putting words in my mouth.
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you think the people who run the website literally owe you a service, community, whatever. and if they fail you you call them "troubled" - by which you clarify - it's not that they're having mental problems, they are just A BAD PERSON. YOU are the one insisting that they stay in the relationship despite it being damaging to THEM, because YOU think you are entitled to it.
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it is clear to me now from some of the reactions on here tonight that the community is actually extremely toxic and i don't blame anyone for running to the hills.
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it's the sense of entitlement i'm seeing from some people
This is really starting to get amusing. You are putting a LOT of words in my mouth.
I never said that Arab owed us the continuation of this service. If he's tired of the burden of running the site, fair enough. What he does owe this community--and this is what the others are also saying--is the chance to let others take over the service and continue providing it, not to just spontaneously shut it down one day without a word. It's funny how you said "the people who run the website" instead of "Arab," because the truth is that many of the "people who run the website" are the very ones who are incensed by this act and who want to continue providing the site and would be happy to do so even if Arab is tired of running it and wants to back out. But Arab didn't even offer the chance for that--and that's the real problem, despite your (odd) attempts to deflect from that issue. No one has faulted Arab for wanting out of the gig. It's the thoughtless way that he did so that is the problem, the "toxic" act, if you will.
When you say "and it's only been taken offline." Well his own statement had quite the ring of finality to it, did it not? So we're simply responding to what he himself has said. Let's review it, shall we? "Nectarine is no more. It's been fun while it lasted. Now give it a rest. Don't mail me."
Nothing in my reaction was unreasonable, excessive, or toxic. I never called Arab a "bad person," as you accuse me of. I did call his actions childish, inconsiderate, irresponsible, which they are. I'm not the judge of who is "good" or "bad," but I can certain comment on bad actions. And a measure of anger in response to a thoughtless action is completely justified--and my communication simply called out this BS for what it is. There was no flaming or swearing or rage (or whatever might be understood as "toxicity"). I challenge you to quote anything I said that conveys a sense of "entitlement" or anywhere where I demanded that Arab maintain his role of managing Nectarine. If anything, the lack of sharing the managerial role--among a small board of directors perhaps--is part of the problem.
And you further skew my statements when you keep bringing up "mental problems." I never said any such thing and only had to "clarify" because people were twisting what I wrote.
So give this a rest MrsBeanbag. Our frustration is normal, expected, and legitimate; I don't the real problem distorted or distracted from by putting words in my mouth.
Sorry, should have read: "I don't NEED the real problem distorted or distracted from by putting words in my mouth."
And by the way, it's also kind of disingenuous of you so speak as though "resentment" is some kind of crime. Resentment doesn't equal "murderous rage" or anything. When someone destroys something you love and have helped to build, it's a pretty natural emotion. Emotions are okay, don't make a big deal out of it.
And by the way, it's also kind of disingenuous of you so speak as though "resentment" is some kind of crime. Resentment doesn't equal "murderous rage" or anything. When someone destroys something you love and have helped to build, it's a pretty natural emotion. Emotions are okay, don't make a big deal out of it.
Oldchap: Your point is pretty clear. I think MrsBeanbag is deliberately ignoring what you are trying to say. The analogies with a corporation or Jamestown were pretty tasteless, but rather than engaging with the point you were trying to make, certain posters here just immediately attacked you. It's sad to see this kind of behavior from adults.
The analogy here seems more like that of a clubhouse. Arab didn't start the club, nor did he build the clubhouse. Others did that. Over 10+ years, members of the club painted it, installed plumbing and appliances, decorated the interior, contributed to and indexed the archives, ran and participated in activities, attended regularly. In fact, the clubhouse was broken into a few years after its first founding and looted completely. It was tenderly rebuilt and redecorated by the members. Then one day the guy who held the only key to the clubhouse door decided he didn't like it anymore, scrawled a rude, patronizing note on the door, and locked everyone out for good.
The club members, some of whom have been attending regularly for a decade, are naturally going to be shocked and upset, and the key holder knew they would be. There's a big difference between what he did and "sorry everyone, I really don't want to do this anymore. Please contact me if you're willing to take over and deal with some new issues that have come up."
The analogy here seems more like that of a clubhouse. Arab didn't start the club, nor did he build the clubhouse. Others did that. Over 10+ years, members of the club painted it, installed plumbing and appliances, decorated the interior, contributed to and indexed the archives, ran and participated in activities, attended regularly. In fact, the clubhouse was broken into a few years after its first founding and looted completely. It was tenderly rebuilt and redecorated by the members. Then one day the guy who held the only key to the clubhouse door decided he didn't like it anymore, scrawled a rude, patronizing note on the door, and locked everyone out for good.
The club members, some of whom have been attending regularly for a decade, are naturally going to be shocked and upset, and the key holder knew they would be. There's a big difference between what he did and "sorry everyone, I really don't want to do this anymore. Please contact me if you're willing to take over and deal with some new issues that have come up."
drama is the reason we can't have nice things :(
So, I went to tune into Nectarine, about 90 minutes ago, and found myself faced with that heartbreaking message. When I saw that, I was genuinely distraught! I've been listening to Nectarine since around 2006 – a relatively short time, considering how it's it's been around, but still. I've also contributed minor things here-and-there (mostly votes, some song info), so seeing that all vanish was really upsetting! But, I figured that the owner was just tired of running the site and decided, on a whim, to close shop.
Then, someone helpfully directed me to this thread.
… wow. That's… certainly something, to read. I'm not really sure what to say… so, I'll just quote wallon, who I think said it best:
(Sidenote: I really like CyborgJeff's music, myself… but, to each their own, hey?)
Then, someone helpfully directed me to this thread.
… wow. That's… certainly something, to read. I'm not really sure what to say… so, I'll just quote wallon, who I think said it best:
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(I hope a peaceful outcome will be found, so that Nectarine can continue in a form or another, without loss of data)
(Sidenote: I really like CyborgJeff's music, myself… but, to each their own, hey?)
I believe there are people with copies of all the publicly available information in a database format (SQLite), which may include votes but is most likely just artist and song metadata. However if you don't have the song files to go with it, then there's not much it's good for.
*in just hoping all the work during the years wasn't for nothing but if so, i guess that's just life :/*
The request-drama was an ongoing problem for sure. There was some annoying trolling. That last instance runs deep.
No-one ever wrote up a proper request throttling mechanism, and instead, bannings and indirect mitigation. In the end, a preemptive solution was implemented. However, now that the plug is pulled, an unsuspecting bug arises. Stream's down until it is figured out. It appears as though moderation and administration are very separate things. One means kicking the box when it stops working, and the other means hog-tieing users with clever cyber warfare (queue code). Unfortunately, we can't hogtie arab at the moment, but we're working on the solution. "Here arabyrabyraby! I have beer! And string!"
In all seriousness, I can only imagine how the long-time, contributors feel. Those who verified song/artist records, contacting sceners around the world to ask questions and permission, tidied up the tagcloud... generally served all Nectas as curators of nerd history. Feels bad, man.
No-one ever wrote up a proper request throttling mechanism, and instead, bannings and indirect mitigation. In the end, a preemptive solution was implemented. However, now that the plug is pulled, an unsuspecting bug arises. Stream's down until it is figured out. It appears as though moderation and administration are very separate things. One means kicking the box when it stops working, and the other means hog-tieing users with clever cyber warfare (queue code). Unfortunately, we can't hogtie arab at the moment, but we're working on the solution. "Here arabyrabyraby! I have beer! And string!"
In all seriousness, I can only imagine how the long-time, contributors feel. Those who verified song/artist records, contacting sceners around the world to ask questions and permission, tidied up the tagcloud... generally served all Nectas as curators of nerd history. Feels bad, man.
Nyingen: Yeah, the point of invoking Jim Jones really had nothing to do with the mass-suicide, but rather with the principle of a leader who would rather destroy his own empire than give up power and control. Admittedly a pretty extreme analogy.
Maybe it's my rigid sense of justice--and the outrage & indignation that accompany injustice--but it's pretty hard for me to tolerate someone sinking the boat simply because they don't want to steer anymore, but won't allow anyone else to touch the wheel.
Maybe it's my rigid sense of justice--and the outrage & indignation that accompany injustice--but it's pretty hard for me to tolerate someone sinking the boat simply because they don't want to steer anymore, but won't allow anyone else to touch the wheel.
I don't see the problem with requesting songs from a particular artist if the songs happen to be unlocked. There used to be crap-sessions on Nectarine on friday evenings all the time and most users were in high spirits about it. Those were great times with a lot of fun going on in the oneliner and many users queuing up songs. So if you as admin interpret that kind of stuff as 'deliberately trying to bother you by requesting crap to make YOUR radio station sound bad' that's written on another sheet of paper.
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If that's the case then, wouldn't it be more reasonable to pass the site to someone else from the community or admin/moderator team?
The problem for years had been that admin's actions were not "reasonable" (many unilateral and highly unpopular decisions were made without consulting users). So this Nectarine issue is just another such case where a website is ultimately dependent on one person and this fact leads to the trouble.
It's sad. I really liked Nectarine and the community. The gentle banter in the oneliner, the not-so-good music queued by VB, ...
But I don't think we have any right to blame arab. Taking care of a website, for free I might add, take time and money. Ultimately, when the person that is in charge of it wants to pull the plug, it's his choice.
But I don't think we have any right to blame arab. Taking care of a website, for free I might add, take time and money. Ultimately, when the person that is in charge of it wants to pull the plug, it's his choice.
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drama is the reason we can't have nice things :(
ain't that the truth!
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But Gargaj - since you seem to think this (seemingly out of the blue) action was completely rational and justified -
would you just pull the plug on Pouet one day without warning?
I don't think the two scenarios have a lot in common.
- Even if I would want to, I couldn't do it - the site source is on Github, and the server takes SQL backups in a place I cannot reach. Even if I or anyone else would go hambone, the site could be rebuilt from those resources in about a day. The only thing off the top of my head that could be damaged are the screenshots and avatars; the former could be restored from Demozoo - but more on that later.
- I have no financial investment in Pouet, everything runs on scene.org-s servers, so I have no daily/monthly beep on my bank account that would provide a motive to pull the plug.
- I didn't create Pouet, so it's not my call. Even after rewriting the whole site from scratch, the site's owner and creator remains Analogue (and he owns the domain), and while I take care of the day-to-day operation, I'm trying to run the site according to his vision, and it'd be a transgression for me to make a decision like that.
But let me address a broader related point here:
I've considered walking away and I still do every few weeks. Running a site this large can be incredibly frustrating, even if the actual "running" doesn't require you to do it as a full-time job and most of the time it doesn't involve your time and money.
It's not necessarily about the time and keystrokes invested. It's about where your head is at and where your heart is at. It's about whether the site still adheres to your vision you came up with when you started it, it's about the site becoming or not becoming what you wanted it do be, whether people behave the way you hoped them to behave when you set out to make the site. As a creator, it can be disheartening to see something become what you never wanted it to be, creating a community that you can no longer relate to, and I absolutely cannot blame them for pulling the plug.
The comments here just reinforce my initial impression that this has been boiling for a long time, it just hasn't ran over yet; the reading that there was some minor incident and the admin threw a fit and went berzerk saddens me because it's either an involuntary or a willing ignorance to the years of frustration that inevitably lead to this point, and the fact that people focus on their own "loss" more than they seem to acknowledge the admin's desperation (or, in some cases, actively turning on the admin even after the admin has actively displayed desperation) illustrates this - if that's the attitude an admin faces on a day-to-day basis when running a site, then I absolutely understand why they feel a community has turned toxic and the only thing they can do is shitcan it. If you keep abusing the kid who owns the ball, sooner or later they're gonna pick it up and go home with it, and that's the effect, not the cause.
Don't take anything for granted - this goes for Pouet, Necta, Scenesat, Revision, anything. Way too many projects in the scene are generally held together by one person, and that person generally goes through a ton of stress, usually caused by the very people they're trying to service. This makes them a single point of failure, which is a bad thing both from an engineering and from a social perspective. I've mentioned Demozoo before because I feel it's great that there's now two sites with slightly overlapping yet distinct functionality which takes the stress of being "The Site" off Pouet, not only from a data retention perspective, but that it provides two platforms to have a discussion and the two can have different outcomes based on which site it's on. Decentralization has its merits, but in 2018 we as users seem to have forgotten what they are. One of them is having multiple footballs to play with, not relying on someone who clearly isn't having fun, especially when for better or for worse the impression they get is that despite all of their discomfort they should shut up and take care of shit.
I don't agree with site closure as a result, and I don't like it, _but I get it_. I've posted this video here before, and I think it's worth reminding people again because it's a neatly succinct summary of how being on the receiving end of something like this feels.
I loved to "fight" with VB about CJ songs ;)
How can I contact arab in order to re-launch a new Nectarine website radio ?
How can I contact arab in order to re-launch a new Nectarine website radio ?
So well... still unbelievable story... here is the message I posted on the forum few hours before Nectarine was done... I don't have any contact with Arab, nor response about it. I post it after having inform an admin decision to banned most of my track from the database, also some tracks written for Belgian demoparties.
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Ok sceners.
I'm here till around 18 years now. I was young, many freetime, and all i'd like was creating musics, share them with Demosceners, and also have been in that communauty. I was happy to participate to Demoparty and demo project. But, yes, .. free time means so many creation. I note around 1500 tracks, and may be 1/3 was uploaded here on Nectarine during those years.
I assume some of them have not a real link to demoscene except i was a demoscener, i love sharing it with those people at that time and using demoscene method to do it. So... in 2004/6, i've asked admins to delete some of them, especially the one that have been vocals or completly not in the mood of demoscene... But Server restore later let them back.
It seems during years that "Cyborg Jeff" intrusion was fun for some of you, olders,... dunno, but when i ask why not deleting it again, there was good reason to keep it.
Today it seems most of Cyborg Jeff would not have been please here. A selection made by our admin, with some personnal criterias, but without my ask, without any discussion... That means today, most of Cyborg Jeff tracks have a "Banned" mention, and i'm not happy with that.
During 18 years, i propose on Nectarine a free gift of my musics, including access to the original data. That was for me important and i think it's aslo a part of Demoscene history... at least belgian demoscene history... i'm not a Moby, a Rez a Hunz or a Radix sure ! But i was here !
I was here, and i'm not agree someone decide alone about my creations what have a reason or not to be here. Especially when he banned some real demoscene stuffs made in belgian demoparty. So there no option. Don't want Cyborg Jeff here, so please DELETE ALL MY TUNES from here... BUT DELETE IT without any "Banned" reference anymore. Clean me from that history of Demoscene if that have non sens for the future.
Thanks for time, sorry for distrurb."
CJ
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What he does owe this community
there it is.
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I never called Arab a "bad person," as you accuse me of.
This is what you said:
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By "troubled" I simply meant that anyone who would destroy a cultural treasure that means so much to so many people (and which is the center of a real community), is obviously acting out of some really problematic anger, spitefulness, vindictiveness, etc. That is "troubled" behavior. He obviously needs to work something out, because mature, healthy people don't attack and destroy something dear to many others. I fully stand by all of my statements and I challenge you to refute them. "Troubled" can refer to issues of character and not only to "mental" issues. I meant the former;
You were very clear that he is not mature and healthy, that he has "really problematic anger, spitefulness, vindictiveness, etc." and were very clear that these are "character issues".
So don't try to tell me you didn't say it.
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Our frustration is normal, expected, and legitimate;
but his is "problematic". i get it.
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Resentment doesn't equal "murderous rage" or anything. When someone destroys something you love and have helped to build, it's a pretty natural emotion. Emotions are okay, don't make a big deal out of it.
in fact i've been talking about the legitimacy of emotions all along. i just don't understand resentment specifically, in this case. Resentment is usually something that stews for a long time, not something that suddenly pops up when someone takes a website offline. But i never asked anyone to not have emotions. what i expect from a mature, healthy adult is for you to own them.
At this time, only Arab has the Power to retighten the situation ... or not ... Give him some time to take a step back on his act ... Give him the benefit of the doubt as to his intentions . Arab is a person like you and me. Leave him time. I myself regret what happens to Nectarine. Let's be patient.
I don't have my horse in this race and I'm sad to see Nectarine go even if rarely if ever used it, but after reading through this I can hardly blame the admin.
thank you for posting that CyborgJeff and i understand where you are coming from.. "banned" is quite a stigmatising word and implies you had done something wrong, which obviously you hadn't.
yep... i assume some stuff have been clean from the database.. and I don't like till 15 years ago that "banned" mention, but assume that... till Friday, visiting the "cyborg Jeff" artist page on nectarine have most of the songs out of the around 300 with banned mention. It's blessing, and also a cut in Belgian story. That message hoping some discussion with admins... dunno there are only Arab, but I would like to exprim, there are someone writing those tunes for you. Putting a bots to banned it without any history of why there are there, ... then I prefer there are not there... But I also hope after that reflexion having discussion about that with them/him.
till today, I've have quite exchange with Arab, also before he drive back Nectarine.
till today, I've have quite exchange with Arab, also before he drive back Nectarine.