UE4 engine vs. rendering quality of demos
category: general [glöplog]
/s /s /s /s
my bad :-/
imerso: you have problems dude, why do you always get so riled up so easily? you seem to always paint this picture where everyone is out to diss your beliefs when they aren't even talking about you. you can blame your walls of text on stress or alcohol but the underlying paranoia originating them clearly runs deeper inside you. it's a bit sad to witness. i'm just saying that quality of life would be much better for everyone if you would just stay calm and carry on. you're traumatized with people not valuing your efforts as a coder, we get it. but it's just a fact of life, stop wallowing on it, it's clearly just making you feel miserable.
Quote:
The demoscene is obviously unique when it comes to small executables, but it would be interesting to know if any techniques that are more useful originate from the demoscene.
It's difficult to pin down - the Mercury guys have authored whitepapers, for one, but at the same time all knowledge is based upon things previously invented, so nothing is ever fully original. I feel much happier when someone claims to be influenced by it (and Hello Games definitely said so).
Thing is, while there are definitely certain areas of graphics (or audio) programming that are, for the lack of a better word, "common" to the scene, none of it is really unique - what makes the scene unique is the idea of combining a bunch of those specific techniques and the "yea fuck it why not" motivation of doing so. Whenever someone comes out and talks about their respect to the scene, it's usually because they respect the irreverent attitude that comes with a good prod, not necessarily the actual coding techniques - it's not necessarily what is being presented, but HOW it's being presented.
Does using Unity take away from a good demo being impressive? On the surface, yeah, because it invites comparisons to other Unity products like Adam and Firewatch and Pillars of Eternity, but that's mostly because what the common perception of Unity really is. People who are deeper into development and know what an engine can and can't provide will understand that Unity is really just glorified boilerplate - a very useful boilerplate, granted, but it's what it is.
Thank you for such a surprisingly straight answer in this twisted thread! It mostly matches my impression.
The discussion about the use of third-party engines reminds me a lot of the discussion about 3D accelerators back in the late 90s. If memory serves me, it was almost seen as cheating and fraud to not write your own texture mapper. People eventually realised that it takes more to make a demo, and that being given the rasteriser for free isn't an unfair advantage.
The discussion about the use of third-party engines reminds me a lot of the discussion about 3D accelerators back in the late 90s. If memory serves me, it was almost seen as cheating and fraud to not write your own texture mapper. People eventually realised that it takes more to make a demo, and that being given the rasteriser for free isn't an unfair advantage.
absence: let me explain my "conspiracy theories" a bit clearer then.
That famous PhD Comics strip about author list is more or less the norm in academic world (again, with exceptions). Now, that third author might be your unsuspecting demoscener that happen to be excited about sharing his ideas that he found while making demo/intro and talking with his demoscene friends. To be fair, other authors might have helped him (sometimes a lot) with proper methodology, formalisms and justification for his claims, nevertheless, the "essence" comes from him.
That famous PhD Comics strip about author list is more or less the norm in academic world (again, with exceptions). Now, that third author might be your unsuspecting demoscener that happen to be excited about sharing his ideas that he found while making demo/intro and talking with his demoscene friends. To be fair, other authors might have helped him (sometimes a lot) with proper methodology, formalisms and justification for his claims, nevertheless, the "essence" comes from him.
psenough: you are right, thank you very much for pointing that out.
Quote:
Now, that third author might be your unsuspecting demoscener that happen to be excited about sharing his ideas that he found while making demo/intro and talking with his demoscene friends. To be fair, other authors might have helped him (sometimes a lot) with proper methodology, formalisms and justification for his claims, nevertheless, the "essence" comes from him.
I asked for concrete examples, not opinions or comic strips. I think Gargaj's post hits the nail, but if you have anything to add, please do.
Quote:
if you have anything to add, please do.
All you can get here are opinions, sorry, as I don't want to shuffle names around of not-so-public people. Please do your homework or maybe enroll to PhD programme to experience it first-handed.
Here's two things to consider: [note: I keep saying "Unity" but it really means "Unity/UE/WZ/..."]
1. If you made a demo in Unity and the most distinctive thing about it is that it was made in Unity, is that really Unity's fault?
2. If you watched a demo in Unity and the only thing you care about it is that it was made in Unity, is that really Unity's fault?
1. If you made a demo in Unity and the most distinctive thing about it is that it was made in Unity, is that really Unity's fault?
2. If you watched a demo in Unity and the only thing you care about it is that it was made in Unity, is that really Unity's fault?
Quote:
All you can get here are opinions, sorry, as I don't want to shuffle names around of not-so-public people.
That's fine, as long as we're clear on what's opinion and what's fact. I obviously can't take your undisclosed anecdote as fact, but please realise that it doesn't mean I have anything personal against you.
absence: that's understandable, the same goes to your opinions, like this one:
So, all we have here is opinions against opinions :)
Quote:
It's my impression that the ideas come from commercial and academic research
So, all we have here is opinions against opinions :)
*or even impressions against impressions
Reminds me of the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" question. There is no trial against Unity. Just people asking to put it in a fair category. If you think demos are just pieces of art no matter the means, go compete against https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXI0l3yqBrA and tell me how many demomakers are still in the race.
If demos are just pieces of art no matter the means, I don't even understand why we separate C64 from Amiga from PC.
If demos are just pieces of art no matter the means, I don't even understand why we separate C64 from Amiga from PC.
Quote:
absence: that's understandable, the same goes to your opinions
There aren't any facts in this thread that support your argument that the demoscene is a meaningful contributor to the field of rendering, while there are stacks upon stacks of papers written by academics and companies. That isn't saying the demoscene is without merit, as it has some pretty unique traits. But credit where credit is due, eh?
im hesitant to rejoin this convo seeing as its only for old people who have been coding since 1776, but couldnt some kind of filesize limit be determined for these engines as well?
absence: again, active demosceneres or ex-demosceners are part of academic world and work for commercial companies. They also do write papers. There are many examples, just do your homework.
Quote:
im hesitant to rejoin this convo seeing as its only for old people who have been coding since 1776, but couldnt some kind of filesize limit be determined for these engines as well?
What purpose would that serve?
Quote:
absence: again, active demosceneres or ex-demosceners are part of academic world and work for commercial companies. They also do write papers. There are many examples, just do your homework.
Demosceners contributing != the demoscene contributing.
You're right, no need for the limit. Didn't think it thru. I'm really just trying to reconcile the place they fit in this kind of work. Clearly we saw a legit ue4 prod this year, so it is possible
Quote:
absence: again, active demosceneres or ex-demosceners are part of academic world and work for commercial companies. They also do write papers. There are many examples, just do your homework.
Assuming that's true, they do the work in the academic or commercial world, it's not the work of the demoscene.
Gargaj: sure, how come demoscene "organization" can even contribute?
Of course, it's just individual members of organization they do.
The same goes for academic/commercial companies. It's not "academia contributes", but rather individual researchers contribute and for commercial companies: employee contribute, usually at the very bottom of the company hierarchy. So what's your point, really?
Of course, it's just individual members of organization they do.
The same goes for academic/commercial companies. It's not "academia contributes", but rather individual researchers contribute and for commercial companies: employee contribute, usually at the very bottom of the company hierarchy. So what's your point, really?
Quote:
I'm really just trying to reconcile the place they fit in this kind of work. Clearly we saw a legit ue4 prod this year, so it is possible
I think you worry too much about it - Unity / UE / etc might ALLOW people to be more creative (the same way Photoshop does), but it doesn't MAKE people more creative.
Trust me im aware.
Im coming to the demoscene from the fine art world as a passionate coder. Like the ART ART digital art world. And i grew FRUSTRATED because its saturated with "first person unity branded walk around trippy environments" pieces and i dont count that as a true work of digital art. But i would count that ue4 demo as one. So theres a gray area in there somewhere
Im coming to the demoscene from the fine art world as a passionate coder. Like the ART ART digital art world. And i grew FRUSTRATED because its saturated with "first person unity branded walk around trippy environments" pieces and i dont count that as a true work of digital art. But i would count that ue4 demo as one. So theres a gray area in there somewhere
Soundy: you know that Adam demo is not really real-time?
From the making of, they use Caronte FX to do all the simulations and fractures/cracks and they _bake them_. Everything mo-capped, lighting and many photorealistic parts captured from real-world, etc... the usual CGI stuff, just pretending to be "real-time". That's what happens if you don't have size limit, you know ;) It's just a pretty much static fly-by that you cannot even change camera anymore so much, because only visible parts of the scene are "production ready".
From the making of, they use Caronte FX to do all the simulations and fractures/cracks and they _bake them_. Everything mo-capped, lighting and many photorealistic parts captured from real-world, etc... the usual CGI stuff, just pretending to be "real-time". That's what happens if you don't have size limit, you know ;) It's just a pretty much static fly-by that you cannot even change camera anymore so much, because only visible parts of the scene are "production ready".