A500 capture opinion time!
category: general [glöplog]
Trixter here, and I'm capturing stuff for Mindcandy 2. I've found something that I want feedback on:
Amiga 500 (A500)' RGB ports appear to have a luminance problem at lower levels -- meaning, in a grayscale that goes from 0 to 15 where 0 is black and 15 is white, the very dark grays at 1 and sometimes 2 equal that of 0 (black). This can result in very dark (or entirely black) shadow detail. Later Amigas (such as the A1200 and A4000) do not have this problem as much. (Fanboyz: Don't argue with me, I've tested on four A500s with calibrated equipment. Just accept this for now and email me if you have problems with what I wrote.)
So, here's my dilemma: Do I capture demos on the machine they were written for (A500), where they will run perfectly but seem dark at the low end? Or do I capture them on newer hardware (A4000) where they will look fine, but possibly run improperaly because the hardware is faster? Which capture is more "authentic"? Which capture would be preferable to Amiga "purists"? Or should I try to raise the low-end in post production, risking noise in the process?
Comments please!
Amiga 500 (A500)' RGB ports appear to have a luminance problem at lower levels -- meaning, in a grayscale that goes from 0 to 15 where 0 is black and 15 is white, the very dark grays at 1 and sometimes 2 equal that of 0 (black). This can result in very dark (or entirely black) shadow detail. Later Amigas (such as the A1200 and A4000) do not have this problem as much. (Fanboyz: Don't argue with me, I've tested on four A500s with calibrated equipment. Just accept this for now and email me if you have problems with what I wrote.)
So, here's my dilemma: Do I capture demos on the machine they were written for (A500), where they will run perfectly but seem dark at the low end? Or do I capture them on newer hardware (A4000) where they will look fine, but possibly run improperaly because the hardware is faster? Which capture is more "authentic"? Which capture would be preferable to Amiga "purists"? Or should I try to raise the low-end in post production, risking noise in the process?
Comments please!
Try an A2000 or A600 first, maybe they do not have this problem.
Is this supposed to be a question? Let's see.. Slight loss of shadow detail vs. fucked up AGA machine running (ruining?) classic demos.. I guess I have to go with the "original hardware" option there. ;)
Can you not get an A1000, A1500, or A2000?
Other than the obvious place, since I'm not there and can't send them?
Also, are these PAL A500's, A500's that have a Fatter Agnes that has been permanetnly modified to boot PAL, or are you using Boot Pal, Dammit! or something along those lines so it boots PAL?
Though the NTSC Phenomenon SHOULD be on the dvd - something to show folks what we actually did go thru - I woudln't do the whole dvd in NTSC. At all. And that does mean you are going to have an odd option in there for NTSC folks anyway - squish the screen, or lose the bottom? (Proper answer is lose the bottom. (: )
Anyway back from tangent. I would say use the A500, but you really need to be absolutely sure it's running in PAL, and for some early demos that could be wrong.
I tried writing you a while back but didn't get thru cuz feen's got a mail eee shoe, and I wans't able to get on AIM, so ... we can talk later about this when we find a way to write back and forth properly.
(SHORT ANSWER: I agree with Break)
Other than the obvious place, since I'm not there and can't send them?
Also, are these PAL A500's, A500's that have a Fatter Agnes that has been permanetnly modified to boot PAL, or are you using Boot Pal, Dammit! or something along those lines so it boots PAL?
Though the NTSC Phenomenon SHOULD be on the dvd - something to show folks what we actually did go thru - I woudln't do the whole dvd in NTSC. At all. And that does mean you are going to have an odd option in there for NTSC folks anyway - squish the screen, or lose the bottom? (Proper answer is lose the bottom. (: )
Anyway back from tangent. I would say use the A500, but you really need to be absolutely sure it's running in PAL, and for some early demos that could be wrong.
I tried writing you a while back but didn't get thru cuz feen's got a mail eee shoe, and I wans't able to get on AIM, so ... we can talk later about this when we find a way to write back and forth properly.
(SHORT ANSWER: I agree with Break)
Original hardware of course. No AGA out-of-sync crap.
Have you tried JavaScript?
Oh, and I had the luminance problem on my A500 with a cheap Goldstar tv too, so I don't think I'll mind. Or even care. "It's supposed to look like that on a tv", I'll say.
Sir Garbage: I don't currently have an A1000 or A2000 but if anyone would like to lend a PAL one to the project we can pay for shipping. The PAL A500 I have is a real one sent to me by Ville. It has 1MB chip, is that a fat agnus or just regular? It has kick v1.3, if that helps... As for PAL->NTSC conversion, I am going to look at each demo individually and do what's best -- which probably means I'll be doing a generic conversion for the entire demo using stretch and then I'll custom-handle individual parts, probably with motion interpolation.
sprocket: Thank you for confirming what I have observed ("out-of-sync crap"). I was wondering what the hell was going on...!
sprocket: Thank you for confirming what I have observed ("out-of-sync crap"). I was wondering what the hell was going on...!
Quote:
(Proper answer is lose the bottom. (: )
Careful, you may upset J.Lo
trixter: 1MB chip? I may be getting old, but I thought the A500 never came with 1MB chip, just 0,5. (And the occasional 0,5 slow expansion).
I think it's either hacked so it looks like 1MB chip or an A500+
(?)
I think it's either hacked so it looks like 1MB chip or an A500+
(?)
Sprocket: Yes, Ville added 512 and a switch I could use to toggle between 1mb chip, 512f/512c, and 512 chip. Unfortunately, using every single position, I can't get Guardian Dragon to run. I thought maybe my disk image was bad, so I tried it in Amiga Forever default settings, and it crashed too! Only when I set UAE to "2mb chip, 8mb fast, 1mb slow" did it work. WTF? What is "slow"?
What is f'ed up in the scene when an emulator can run Amiga demos better than a real Amiga...?
What is f'ed up in the scene when an emulator can run Amiga demos better than a real Amiga...?
sprocket: the ones with fatter agnus (I think it was) could be modified to 1mb chip...
trixter: "slow mem" aka "fake fast" is the most usual expansion memory for the a500's, i.e. the 512kb expansion that some people refer to as "fast". The point is that it isn't faster than chipmem, and it cant be used for data that should be available for the custom chips...
as for your problems with guardian dragon, I have no idea whats going on..:) but I've watched it on a500's several times..
trixter: "slow mem" aka "fake fast" is the most usual expansion memory for the a500's, i.e. the 512kb expansion that some people refer to as "fast". The point is that it isn't faster than chipmem, and it cant be used for data that should be available for the custom chips...
as for your problems with guardian dragon, I have no idea whats going on..:) but I've watched it on a500's several times..
What was the configuration of your A500 when you watched it? Just 512k chip?
I also suspect that many DMSs/ADFs floating around have been tweaked for AGA, '020, or emulators... and no longer work on a real A500, and the original image is gone. I downloading SOTA from somewhere and at the top of the end screen is "SKID ROW DEBUGGED IT", wtf? Is there an archive of "pristine" amiga demos somewhere?
I also suspect that many DMSs/ADFs floating around have been tweaked for AGA, '020, or emulators... and no longer work on a real A500, and the original image is gone. I downloading SOTA from somewhere and at the top of the end screen is "SKID ROW DEBUGGED IT", wtf? Is there an archive of "pristine" amiga demos somewhere?
trixter: The "skid row debugged it" was, because it fucks up even on some real machines. ;)
Yeah, but that just makes more work for me since I have to remove it in post :-) Although, removing it will be easy since I will just mirror the bottom part of the screen up to the top to match.
What about Desert Dream and it's "title screen corruption" (some noise on the title with Laxity's name)? I get this on every Amiga (kudos to Laxity for writing a demo that runs on pretty much every amiga) and I've tried several .adf and .dms files.
Should I be trying to use an A1000 for some demos, or should it be possible with an A500? I ask because A500s are very easy to get, but A1000s aren't.
What about Desert Dream and it's "title screen corruption" (some noise on the title with Laxity's name)? I get this on every Amiga (kudos to Laxity for writing a demo that runs on pretty much every amiga) and I've tried several .adf and .dms files.
Should I be trying to use an A1000 for some demos, or should it be possible with an A500? I ask because A500s are very easy to get, but A1000s aren't.
...state of the art: it should end with a graphic reading "phew" (or something like this) instead of that skid row crap.
...desert dream: the false pixels were always there so they somehow belong to the demo.
...demo-archive: i still have my old demo-collection from up to around 1997 on cd.
---
and in reply to the original question: please go for the a500 way. if all else fails, don't forget the emulators.
...desert dream: the false pixels were always there so they somehow belong to the demo.
...demo-archive: i still have my old demo-collection from up to around 1997 on cd.
---
and in reply to the original question: please go for the a500 way. if all else fails, don't forget the emulators.
The first release of SOTA had some compatibility problems, so Skid Row "fixed it".
Spaceballs later released a fixed version themselves, and the end should say "Phew. Simply state of the art". Without any Skid Row comment.
(Slummy knows 100 times more about this).
99% of all the demos of that era are made for the A500, so if you can't run them on the original hardware, your Amiga has issues.
And.. as for original unmodified versions.. There are enough demo collectors out there with large collections. :)
Spaceballs later released a fixed version themselves, and the end should say "Phew. Simply state of the art". Without any Skid Row comment.
(Slummy knows 100 times more about this).
99% of all the demos of that era are made for the A500, so if you can't run them on the original hardware, your Amiga has issues.
And.. as for original unmodified versions.. There are enough demo collectors out there with large collections. :)
State of the Art without the fix. Got that some minutes ago from a friendly scener. :)
Trixter: Unfortunately, all mine are NTSC ):
Plus inaccessable right now. But, will see what I can do about that, not promising anything. I have a 2500 which might still be in the box I got it in when I bought it while I was over here (I didn't have a 2500 and I wanted one, plus it had the video toaster stuff, and was cheap) and that MIGHT help fix some bits with the video out. I don't know. Heck I don't even know if it works cuz I haven't SEEN it.
MadenMann: Thank you. I needed that. Skid Row's version sucks ass, NEVER modify another group's actual content that is so fucking lame.
Sprocket: Of COURSE our Amigas have issues, they're NTSC. NTSC Amigas have issues with PAL demos. We TRIED to tell you people this but some bad coders insisted they worked (:
And finally: PLEASE NO EMULATORS, we will get the real hardware for the project somehow. I don't know how. Yet.
Plus inaccessable right now. But, will see what I can do about that, not promising anything. I have a 2500 which might still be in the box I got it in when I bought it while I was over here (I didn't have a 2500 and I wanted one, plus it had the video toaster stuff, and was cheap) and that MIGHT help fix some bits with the video out. I don't know. Heck I don't even know if it works cuz I haven't SEEN it.
MadenMann: Thank you. I needed that. Skid Row's version sucks ass, NEVER modify another group's actual content that is so fucking lame.
Sprocket: Of COURSE our Amigas have issues, they're NTSC. NTSC Amigas have issues with PAL demos. We TRIED to tell you people this but some bad coders insisted they worked (:
And finally: PLEASE NO EMULATORS, we will get the real hardware for the project somehow. I don't know how. Yet.
noname: Is there any way I can get my hands on your archive? Maybe make it available online somewhere? I just want to be SURE I have proper originals... Just because some of my images work in an emu doesn't prove they weren't modified...
MadenMann: Thanks, I'll download it tonight! (at work right now)
Sir Garbage: Speak for yourself, I do have a real PAL A500, but it bugs on Guardian Dragon in exactly the same way as my NTSC A500 set to PAL using Degrader (is there a better app than degrader, btw?)
As for emulation, the goal for this project is 100% no emulators. If I have to buy/borrow more Amigas I will, just tell me what I can do to get Guardian Dragon running... (I have more demos with issues, but I figure Guardian Dragin is a good litmus test -- meaning, if I get GD running, then the others will probably run too)
MadenMann: Thanks, I'll download it tonight! (at work right now)
Sir Garbage: Speak for yourself, I do have a real PAL A500, but it bugs on Guardian Dragon in exactly the same way as my NTSC A500 set to PAL using Degrader (is there a better app than degrader, btw?)
As for emulation, the goal for this project is 100% no emulators. If I have to buy/borrow more Amigas I will, just tell me what I can do to get Guardian Dragon running... (I have more demos with issues, but I figure Guardian Dragin is a good litmus test -- meaning, if I get GD running, then the others will probably run too)
I'll download GD and test it on my PAL A500..
(Yes, he's my pal.. hah hah)
(Yes, he's my pal.. hah hah)
No idea what that 'degrader' is. I never used it. Guardian Dragon, on the other hand, worked fine for me.
Jesus on E's of course has anti-Truck coding in it, and will not run on any machine I am near. Including emulators.
Jesus on E's of course has anti-Truck coding in it, and will not run on any machine I am near. Including emulators.
My Jesus on E's crashes on my PAL A500 but the same .ADF runs fine in an emulator... I've run system tests, memory tests, etc. on my A500s and they test fine, so what the hell is going on? Argh...
sprocket, let me know what you find and, if it works, please tell me what the *exact* config of your A500 is.
sprocket, let me know what you find and, if it works, please tell me what the *exact* config of your A500 is.
Well the joke in LSD was anti-truck code. No matter what we did to it, it didn't actually work on anything I was near.
Same disks work fine on same equipment when I am not near them.
You live near where I lived when that we released that... So...
I can see if Spoon or someone can capture it; Spoon (echo/lsd) already did in divx (it was the first copy on the net) and might be able to capture it to your specs.
Same disks work fine on same equipment when I am not near them.
You live near where I lived when that we released that... So...
I can see if Spoon or someone can capture it; Spoon (echo/lsd) already did in divx (it was the first copy on the net) and might be able to capture it to your specs.
OK, OK, I'll bite.
*WTF* is "anti-truck code". :-P
*WTF* is "anti-truck code". :-P
