pouët.net

Outline was so awesaome it killed my demobox.

Laptop tot. Demobox tot.
Smartphone was tot at beginning of April.

Time to party like its 1995.

I need to work in Apex, so I'm going to fix things eventually.

But for right now . . . FUCK THIS SHIT, I'M GETTING AN AMIGA.

Kickass party. Nice to meet the old generation again, and nice to see the new generation with its energy, open mindness and fun !

As Zerkman said.

As said by someone else, the tables could be arranged better. I came early, had a nice spot for me and the people I was meeting up with, but our spot was quickly overtaken after short time, and I had nowhere to set up my huge ass wacom and the monster laptop I had borrowed from work. No biggie, since there were lots of other stuff to do, but yeah, it was cramped a bit :)

@metoikos, when you have an Amiga, every day is a party day!

Now *this* is scary.

and following him with zeeman flags! it is a new world order!

I have no idea what this is, but it seemed appropriate.

KNOEKI ARMY

also, hoping party photos on slengpung soon.

Fantastic party indeed, in my opinion one of the best editions so far. The new party place is as relaxed as ever, I even prefer it to the previous one. It wouldn't handle more visitors/computers though. I wish the compos would be more stuffed on the demo entry side of things, but I guess Outline is just of a too chilly character to make people work properly on their prods :)

However, it was great sitting in the sun, meeting old friends and many others the first time in real life. Regards to all of you! Thanks a lot to the obviously hard working organizers. Amazing work of the compo team handling all that different stuff without long breaks etc. Food service was awesome, in fact the Dutch vegetarian stuff will stay unmatched in my memory. Oh, and also loved that Revision coffee machine once I figured out how it worked. Thanks for all that guys!

Um, small request.

If you have to choose someone to upload releases to scene.org ... can it NOT be someone from Poo-brain? :)

That was my fuck up, separate from the outline orgas, I uploaded only ziphorse to see how adding entries to scene.org worked and of course immediately dragged it in the wrong folder... Sorry about that!

The biggest problem was that some of the files from the first batch were apparently not uploaded completely so I had to compare them with the newer uploads :D Was just joking about poo-brain involvement here :)

I didn´t get a table. Was totally happy with sofascening while beeing inside instead ;D

Real Outline is outside anyway :D

Vickey uploaded some pictures already, which will be added to Slengpung alongside with other pics as soon as possible.

@Baudsurfer

Again, no, i didn't request or ask for a volume setting, i informed about the internal value i set. You know, the one you save a byte on, which requires the main volume of the PA to be raised in your case ;) If you want to play your sound on a specific volume level, then invest the byte and set it ... or maybe, ask kindly if i set mine to let's say ~30%, so your sound is not silent compared to mine? :D



Let's not mix up Function2014 and Outline2015 here (i was talking Function2014). Of course i appreciate that you offer your system to run demos on (for Outline2015). But i guess every size coder would happily offer HIS system to run entries on, since the own ones do obviously perfect this way. Mind you, we are in a field, where these tiny platform differences actually matter a lot, owning the compo platform is an advantage here.

If the orga says so beforehand ("we use Baudsurfers Win XP Laptop with these settings : ..."), i'd be fine with it. But i'm not, if the system is switched last minute, especially not if i invested time in setting up the machine. Imagine it the other way around: how would your entries perform on DosBox? From what i saw, it was visual crap with stutter sound at whopping 0.2 FPS :P How would they perform on real MSDOS? Oh wait :P

So, could changing the compo system last minute even have influenced the results? Let's have a look :


I'd say "yes" here, wouldn't you agree? But anyway, party is over now, everybody is sober again and back to real life, so who cares ;)

Regarding the principle thought of have bootsector demos instead: i fullheartedly agree. No OS, no tricks, just coder vs machine. Fun fact: i will hold a workshop in our local hackspace soon, regarding sizecoding, and most likely i will do it in a boot sector demo context, since people seem to have problems to understand all these virtualization and why this and that effect is supposed to be "good" when there are APIs and stuff. Boot sector coding makes this very clear. The problem is of course, that one would have to have access to the compo machine to test things on. And this is why actually DosBox with a fixed configuration is the better choice. Yep, it's not the real thing, but neither is the emulated DOS in Windows XP nor everything on a VM. Even with a real MSDOS, one could argue about the version, about drivers, about sound and graphic hardware and whatnot. From an abstract point, it doesn't even matter if the system is real or not. It should be the same for everybody and available to everybody - all the time. That would be fair competition. But that would also mean that the performance of raymarching approaches are heavily hit, so you will probably never agree to this, unless even faster machines in 5 years can handle it on an emulated OS :D

Regarding this "Pickover" thing : No, neither you nor Ramon have anything to do with how Function 256b came to life. Hop over there ;)

Regarding the "Sierpinksi" structure, come on man, Sierpinksi is easy once you know the formula, i even did an interactive colored version in 16 Byte. In 2D of course, but i also have 3D approaches here, ranging from 64 bytes to 128 bytes. Just nothing i would publish at a party right now ;) So you beat me in doing 3D Sierpinski better - and/or smaller - than the original. You chose the "better" path, and i think : quite successful. No insult here, no accusation. Just i hopped over there and thumbed up before i forget it again ;)

And just in general : of course your code is easy! :D What do you expect? I'm i sizecoder myself and preferably code in even more insane regions (sizewise) than you. Polymorph code, sizecoding tricks, reusing opcodes, odd jumps, executing data, "undocumented" instructions and the tiny details about x86 architechture. I know it all, and so do you. I can read your code without problems. Also i happen to have studied IT with the focus on computer graphics - just so you know that everything we do here is still "basic" in terms of complexity. Most people might be impressed to the maximum if they see a fractal structure in 3D - even if it's really low FPSed. I am not. I know how these things work. Does that hurt your feelings now? :D

Something about sizecoding routine. Whether one has an idea and finds this idea already done in a sizetro or just is inspired by a production, it's mostly the same right after that: One tries to make it either better or smaller, maybe both. Often it's simply not possible, and that's most certainly because only so much approaches are possible within size limits. What i'm trying to point out here, if i analyze a production and mention what's similar to this, then this is no insult. It's just how things are. Just a few approaches are NOT already done in a sizetro, and just a few of US happen to come up with something really new. For example, when i first saw "Deus Faber" i INSTANTLY thought:


PLUS

EQUALS


Yeah, on an abstract level, isn't it as easy as exchanging the criterion of raymarch hits to another well known fractal formula? Mind you, no insult ;) Still, somebody has to come up with that idea, implement it, tune it, and improve it ... for example with adding sound :) But this is no exception to my sizecoding routine and what i think - really - is "nice - so that one is off the TO DO list as well", but don't expect me to be overly impressed. I was, when i saw "spongy" first, and since then my expectations did rise ;)

Finally, for the MSDOS issue. Yep, i know all these sources, and spread them myself everytime i can. I ran the "whatreg" on my real MSDOS 6.22 machine to provide data:



CX = 0x00FF here, like we love and use it =) It must be something else. Maybe i dive deeper into that issue myself, but not for now ;)

I'd like to close like this: I'm not having any problem with your stuff not running on MSDOS, but maybe you should have? MSDOS demos, not running on MSDOS ... that seems not right ;) And telling me, that comments regarding this issue are

isn't that a little ... ambivalent negative implied? ;)

kinda offtopic:

HellMood: Any chance for recording the workshop to share it? :)

Outline 2015 is in the books so it is time for me as main organizer to review our efforts, successes and failures. I was really happy to see and hear that our visitors like the new location, and even more so when the owners of the location indicated to me in the hours after the party that Outline will be welcome to return to Willemsoord in 2016.

Some of you mentioned specific issues that you experienced while attending the party, I'd like to address these issues so you have a realistic picture of what could be improved if we do indeed decide to return to Willemsoord.
1- Parking. Grass on the second parking lot will be cut in the week before the party and we'll bring a can of chalk spray to mark parking spaces so we don't run into unnecessary space problems again.
2. Sleeping rooms. The layout of the lower floor rooms in Willemsoord cannot be changed unless the complete building is reconstructed or a significant reduction of the total number of beds is accepted (which is not an option for us or the owner). Realistically speaking, besides advising people to make use of the excellent camping facilities and perhaps reintroducing the Outline rent-a-tent system, the best we can do to improve in this aspect is not to forget to bring the big box of earplugs which we handed out for free from the bar in recent years.
3. The beds. The single beds upstairs were among the best I've ever experienced at such locations, the smaller bunkbeds were similar in size (190x85) to those in Eersel (and many other places) but slightly lower (I didn't have to climb but could just swing a leg into the top bed, lay down, and roll over :)). I sleep in a semi-fetal position so even though I am 205cm it's hard for me to assess any problem people have with the length of the beds- I only need ~175cm myself. As with the room layouts, sleeping in these types of beds is a situation we'll have to deal with at any such location. The upside about Willemsoord is, at least we have the option to assign significantly more suitable beds to visitors with specific needs, that's certainly an improvement over Eersel.
4. The catering setup- It was totally new for us as organizers, and I totally agree the method employed on Saturday (long row in the hall) worked a lot better than the Friday buffet setup (in a circle in the kitchen). So we'll go for the long row system for all buffets next year :)
5. The table layout. I'm inclined to think that any perceived problem with the layout we chose is mostly down to space limitations. In the current setup, we have 76 laptop or small system spots on tables, 16 large system spots on tables, 18 laptop spots on the couches and several organizers who setup their systems in other places (orgo room and compodesk). Let's assume we want to give every visitor a position facing the screen- that'll cut down the total number of computer spots from 110 to 73 and would essentially mean we'd have to scale down to the ~82 visitors that fit in the sleeping building (we don't want to sell tickets without a computer spot, except to organizers who can setup their systems elsewhere). An additional complicating factor are the poles in the venue (and I don't mean a drunk LiSU but rather the wooden things supporting the roof :))- the distance between them somewhat dictates inter-row distances that make double sided seating the logical way to go. Having said all that, I'm curious to see what other floor plans people can come up with, so I'll post our internal one as a starting point and look forward to seeing your suggestions in a similar visual form :)

6. The showers- The shower room upstairs in the sleeping building was only warm when there was noone using the showers downstairs (as in, the evening before the party). The showers downstairs were a little less problematic but not ideal either. This is an issue the owner is aware of and is trying to fix, however, his options are somewhat limited due to specific limitations imposed by the structure of the building (with internal carrying walls). There were some really hot showers too, though- in the separate sanitary building for the campsite- I'm pretty sure these were above the recommended temperature for hot showers, which was really excellent in my opinion :)
7. Temperature in the sleeping building. Keep in mind that the nighttime temperatures last weekend were ridiculously low for this time of the year in Holland. So yes, it was a bit chilly, but doable with a decent blanket or sleepingbag (or two). If the nighttime temperatures go up by only 10 degrees (which is not a stretch by any means based on weather statistics) I'll be more worried about high temperatures in the lower floor sleeping area, to be totally honest with you.
8. Showing 128b DOS compo entries on real hardware. HellMood, like I told you when we discussed your entries before the party, I really appreciate it when people take the time to make sure their entries look correct. And had we had to come to the conclusion that Baudsurfer's laptop could not be connected to the beamer in the very limited time we had before the compo then we would have thankfully made use of the DosBox config you carefully crafted- not just for your own entries but also for others (which could be argued to be just as "(un)fair" as using any other participant config, like Baudsurfer's laptop for example). However, I told you in that exchange before the party that we would try to go for real hardware if that opportunity would present itself. You indicated your support for that general method of operation and you were obviously aware of this option being a realistic one as you requested access to that real hardware (which we unfortunately had to decline due to lack of a suitable internet connection at the venue). Furthermore, as I recall it, you asked for my assistance in determining the speed/feeling of the Hypnoteye intro several times while testing it on the compobox via TeamViewer because you could not correctly assess these factors via the remote connection (and we never tested "Toverdrank"). Also we discussed the potential that the emulator could run differently once we'd hook up the compobox to the beamer. For these reasons I feel it is not completely fair to suggest that there was a surefire way to avoid any potential or perceived problem with showing your entries- correct showing would have depended on my, Alpha C or someone else's interpretations of your intentions in any conceivable scenario except the one in which you would have been present at the venue personally. I was at the back of the hall during the 128byte compo and besides the sound problem the difference between some of the attempts in that TeamViewer session and what I saw on the bigscreen was not very dramatic in my eyes, especially not since you had indicated you might alter some music related parameters after the TeamViewer session had ended and the example captures you provided indicated that you preferred the effect to run relatively fast (to my eyes, anyway). The general reaction from the crowd seemed to be in line with this. So yes, there was a sound problem, for which we apologize and which we think we fixed adequately by showing the intro again with sound- but I don't feel regret about the decision to go for real hardware instead of an emulator, as we have always been clear about our intentions in that regard.
9. Uploading of entries by suspected Poo-Brain members. I'm not sure if I should feel flattered, offended or both. Hmm.

That should cover all the topics mentioned after the party, if you have any further questions please feel free to ask. We will be deliberating on Outline's future in the following weeks and come up with announcement after reaching consensus among the organizers. Thank you for your support and patience, that motivates us to do our best to make Outline even better! :)

Havoc, the floor plan is missing one table close to the stage which was stolen by two awkward guys during one of the compos! One of them was rather huge (I estimate about 205cm), but tried to hide that distinctive feature by folding himself under the table. However, I am pretty sure at some point they were caught by Dutch police when trying to escape through the windmill landscape like that, and hopefully the table will be back next year.

deathy, if you're reading this .. please contact me! (on irc or here) :)

@havoc: it's funny how our points of view can differ so much on one shared conversation. Since i already repeatedly stated mine here, i think it's enough already. Thanks for the all the effort, and let's hope for a better outcome next time :) Maybe i should start to include another kind of preview in my submissions ;)

I have to add that over the course of the three party mornings I tried both showers in the sleeping building downstairs and one in the sanitary building, and even the latter was cold. It had a few drops of semi-warm water coming out in the beginning but that was soon replaced by the usual freezing cold water after a few seconds. :\


True, and I was kinda already anticipating lower temperatures than in previous years, but I didn't even think about briningg an extra blanket in addition to a quite warm sleeping bag. Let's just hope this will be resolved automatically next year by some awesome weather!

Regarding Buffett blacement: The hall was better than the kitchen, best would be to place it outside if the weather allows itm though: Way more space there :)

Regarding computer places: Not needed for everyone IMO. Wondering if more people will fit in without getting overcrowded during compo time or bad weather.
Wouldn´t count the sofas as proper laptop places since there were hardly any power sockets nearby.

Regarding DOS entries: I think the organizers did ok (many other parties support DOS entries way less properly), so if you want perfect reproduction be there or make sure someone else who knows the entry best is there.

Fearing its getting too hot inside: Well, during warm weather the meadows and the sky form a nice bed, too ;)

Only thing missed: The ghetto bonfire from last year ;)

Outline 2015 was, once again, the best Outline demoparty yet. The new location in Willemsoord was also top too on a number of fronts; even though I was a fan of the previous location in Eersel even I can recognize that things such as location have to change.

I think the only slight bugbear was the issue of parking in the field next to the house - but as the suggestions that Havoc made a few posts ago for next time round (if we are at Willemsoord again) for ensuring that the grass is cut and that temporary parking spaces are drawn on, this should help a lot for the future :)

The food arrangements were exceptionally good on all 3 evenings. Although I personally had no problem with the layout of the food in the kitchen on the Friday evening I do agree with Havoc that the long line of food as it was served in the corridor on the Saturday evening is the way to go with all meals served within the building. The Hapkar was also very good too - nice to see that they were offering a fair amount of free extra food and nibbles alongside what we had paid for.

I also had no problem sleeping, despite the lower temperatures. It was cool to be able to use the little room that I was sharing with CiH and some of the French guys upstairs.

I think there was also a fair amount of space within the party building itself. True, quite a few of us had brought our Atari or other retro systems with us, but I reckon that - providing everyone using retro kit sticks to using TFT . LCD type screens as opposed to CRT then that should help a lot in terms of the overall space.

Many thanks once again to Havoc and the other orgas at Outline 2015. You did a superb job once again and I'm sure you'll all repeat that at Outline 2016, whether that is held again at Willemsoord or not :)

@HellMood, I'm responding for last time to you because you're wasting my time. I know you want to keep face but...



I know you know how things worked since you thanked FinalPatch when he explained to you how my code worked for the 128-byte raycaster here in the comments :

You could thank me instead, don't you think ?



First of all I did not change the compo system. I only followed other people's guidelines. Secondly to be frank, I'd say "No" since your entry ran fine (so you had no reason to start this discussion here - or for Function demoparty as explianed in last reply) and again it is a simple 2003 64-byte tunnel which came with sourcecode by Ryg (how does that fare versus a first-timer fractal ship ?). I was also suprised by the voting... But shut! It's taboo to talk about other possible reasons, certainly on Pouet and in 2015 ;) If you have some intellectual honesty like say Romanians do, you'll understand easily if that's already not the case.

Ok you probably though wrong after growing fonts scan or just didn't look at the sourcecodes you are talking about. The First sourcecode is pure trigonometric 3D rotations, Deus Faber has none. The second is the only 3D fractal in 128 bytes and the most upvoted 128 bytes of all-time alas except maybe some lucky few it's source was never made available to the public. So Sourcecode avail for 1st one but unused if you compare the sources and 2nd one might be good but source never published contrary to Deus Faber.
So no. Afterwards you could say that if somebody does a Sierpinski (carpet or triangle), it's either copied or easy. I'd say it's more inspired by Wacław Sierpiński himself and if you take out Mandelbrots and Sierpinskis, 20% of the Pouet prods are (if I follow your logical thinking) copied and/or easy.


MSDOS is command.com and you have that on both WIN98/XP and DOS<6.22 as originals. DOS6.22 is by no way more legitimate than command.com in XP. It's your misbelief only (even if it is common)

FINALLY. I'd just like you to understand that you force people into intervening because you're tiring by complaining all the time, wether it is at Outline or at Function, wether it is on the BBS party threads, oneliner, on on other people's prod pages : you just complain about your placings or the showing ALL THE TIME. Most of the time everybody went through what you went through and just shuts up but no you have to go on and on about how "you should have won". It's tiring dude, really tiring and shows disrespect for all the other competitors in general too. And I don't understand how you can't comprehend you're already over-voted most of the time so you would be the last person I expect to complain.

So I'll let you respond whatever and not read/reply (because you're just wasting my time), but please stop posting nonsense on my pages please.

@Baudsurfer

thanks for allowing me to respond to this =) What in the would i do without this permission! I'm also getting tired of all this, as you can see in my last response to havoc. So here in short : don't act like you invented raymarching. Don't accuse me of copying (totally simple) ideas, when you - and in fact almost every sizecoder, does exactly that, too. Don't act like ANY of this funny size crap is any difficult. And don't act like i want so desperately to win or anything. I just want to see my entries correctly shown ONCE. Please go on producing slow raycasters, which as of now - only seem to run on emulated Windows XP DOS, but also accept people pointing that out. I'll continue to post what i want and where i want =)

Thanks for not reading and responding ;)