Demoscene social issues
category: general [glöplog]
Hahaha!
so much free time lost not making demos!
well exactly what rez said :D
Abstract for the TLDR ppl: what looks perfect for me probably isn't for others, and without the others and their diversity, there's no party... Always look at the bright side of life.
I'd say the best parties are the one were lots of different ppl are. It's the mix that makes them good.
- A quiet gentle party is great for long talks and spending time with ppl, but it lacks those deliciously unexpected moments some heavy (drinking) party ppl brink. Makes some memories to tell our grandchildren.
- A hectic party will be fun, but can lead to bad moments like fearing for your safety, your gear, or ending up walking in vomit and spending 30 minutes trying to clean it. And once home, you realise you couldn't really meet anyone.
I dont share the fun in getting wasted, coz I dont wanna miss the good talks, but I do want the parties and the awkward memories that heavy party ppl bring! And I certainly wouldn't want to ruin the fun of others when I can (re)act by myself when they bother me (changing tables, moving away from drunkards ready to unload, changing zone to chat, hotel room to sleep, ...).
My fear with CoC is that:
- it's like a big finger pointing to an underlying claim that "demoparties are problematic enough that we need to reinforce rules" were my own xp is that they're probably the friendliest and safest parties i've attended.
- that big fingers often makes you feel guilty by default, even when you're all quiet and tamed. It's not really inviting.
- it's often so strict and guilt-driven that some of the funny ppl (that I dont understand but acknowledge as bringing a fun that would lack otherwise) might get scared away.
Demoparties nowadays have come a long way from their past insane craze. The heavy competitions between groups and hardwares, the flamewars, the fact we were teenagers... Back in the 90s, some of them were really scary. But todays parties are really relaxed and soft in comparison. There isn't that outsider lamer spirit anymore. A overwhelming majority of the attendants are respectful gentle(wo)men, coming there to meet old good friends and show / talk about geek tech and digital arts :)
I felt no hatred nor discrimination about the fact i ain't a white male. I felt a discrimination about the fact i'm french (but that normal :) <kidding/>.
Anyway, imho, taming them even more = boring seated tech talks, or having a tea in a retirement home.
About the groping and harassment and all. It's illegal and a demoparty does not escape the countries laws, they thus apply fully and prolly need no rewriting (if they do, it's the country's laws that has to be changed).
I'd say the best parties are the one were lots of different ppl are. It's the mix that makes them good.
- A quiet gentle party is great for long talks and spending time with ppl, but it lacks those deliciously unexpected moments some heavy (drinking) party ppl brink. Makes some memories to tell our grandchildren.
- A hectic party will be fun, but can lead to bad moments like fearing for your safety, your gear, or ending up walking in vomit and spending 30 minutes trying to clean it. And once home, you realise you couldn't really meet anyone.
I dont share the fun in getting wasted, coz I dont wanna miss the good talks, but I do want the parties and the awkward memories that heavy party ppl bring! And I certainly wouldn't want to ruin the fun of others when I can (re)act by myself when they bother me (changing tables, moving away from drunkards ready to unload, changing zone to chat, hotel room to sleep, ...).
My fear with CoC is that:
- it's like a big finger pointing to an underlying claim that "demoparties are problematic enough that we need to reinforce rules" were my own xp is that they're probably the friendliest and safest parties i've attended.
- that big fingers often makes you feel guilty by default, even when you're all quiet and tamed. It's not really inviting.
- it's often so strict and guilt-driven that some of the funny ppl (that I dont understand but acknowledge as bringing a fun that would lack otherwise) might get scared away.
Demoparties nowadays have come a long way from their past insane craze. The heavy competitions between groups and hardwares, the flamewars, the fact we were teenagers... Back in the 90s, some of them were really scary. But todays parties are really relaxed and soft in comparison. There isn't that outsider lamer spirit anymore. A overwhelming majority of the attendants are respectful gentle(wo)men, coming there to meet old good friends and show / talk about geek tech and digital arts :)
I felt no hatred nor discrimination about the fact i ain't a white male. I felt a discrimination about the fact i'm french (but that normal :) <kidding/>.
Anyway, imho, taming them even more = boring seated tech talks, or having a tea in a retirement home.
About the groping and harassment and all. It's illegal and a demoparty does not escape the countries laws, they thus apply fully and prolly need no rewriting (if they do, it's the country's laws that has to be changed).
alkama! <3
I don't agree on imposing a list of things rules on everyone and throwing out everybody for who don't comply. It's working fine how it is... in general. When it doesn't, voice your opinion, fight for your cause, ask for help from friends and organizers.
Sometimes I do get drunk and do stupid things. But if somebody tells me that I'm going overboard and should stop then I will.
It would be nice to have solutions to problems that might happen at a demoparty. Like plans to what to do in case somebody pukes during compo time and how to deal with the person. I puked on someone in my lifetime. I'm not proud of it and I wish it will never happen again. I offered him free drinks. But I feel it wasn't enough for what I've done. I would have helped him with anything after that, but I have no idea who he was and he was too shy to ask anything and we never met again. (I'm probably going to hell)
Information on how to deal with certain stuff will surely help newcomers. Like I you want to sleep at night, bring earplugs or noise cancelling headphones and go to sleep after the main events are over and before people start waking up in the morning. And that people are much more friendly than they seem to be. You can end up having a great discussion about floating points with random strangers.
Also, bring a towel! You always bring a towel.
Sometimes I do get drunk and do stupid things. But if somebody tells me that I'm going overboard and should stop then I will.
It would be nice to have solutions to problems that might happen at a demoparty. Like plans to what to do in case somebody pukes during compo time and how to deal with the person. I puked on someone in my lifetime. I'm not proud of it and I wish it will never happen again. I offered him free drinks. But I feel it wasn't enough for what I've done. I would have helped him with anything after that, but I have no idea who he was and he was too shy to ask anything and we never met again. (I'm probably going to hell)
Information on how to deal with certain stuff will surely help newcomers. Like I you want to sleep at night, bring earplugs or noise cancelling headphones and go to sleep after the main events are over and before people start waking up in the morning. And that people are much more friendly than they seem to be. You can end up having a great discussion about floating points with random strangers.
Also, bring a towel! You always bring a towel.
Hi scamp, hi everyone,
Which is exactly what I did, and it's fine. I have no problem with people having different opinions on what an awesome demoparty is, and I found some other parties more matching to what I'm looking for.
If you read my message carefully you will notice that I was suggesting two things:
1) Add a warning about extremely loud sound, drunk people, people watching porn, somewhere on the party website. So people can make an opinion on wether the party is something they could enjoy or not.
2) Don't pretend this is the one and only way to run a demoparty. I'm not requesting any change to any particular demoparty, but I think it is important that people know there are different parties with different ways to do things - especially important for newcomers.
That's all I'm asking for. So I can easily know which parties I should visit or not. It does not seem clear to everyone that "unlimited freedom" is not the same as "all-inclusive community".
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b) Take your political correctness up your arse and GET THE FUCK OUT
Which is exactly what I did, and it's fine. I have no problem with people having different opinions on what an awesome demoparty is, and I found some other parties more matching to what I'm looking for.
If you read my message carefully you will notice that I was suggesting two things:
1) Add a warning about extremely loud sound, drunk people, people watching porn, somewhere on the party website. So people can make an opinion on wether the party is something they could enjoy or not.
2) Don't pretend this is the one and only way to run a demoparty. I'm not requesting any change to any particular demoparty, but I think it is important that people know there are different parties with different ways to do things - especially important for newcomers.
That's all I'm asking for. So I can easily know which parties I should visit or not. It does not seem clear to everyone that "unlimited freedom" is not the same as "all-inclusive community".
kudos alkama and musk
(:
(:
that idea of warnings is flawed. e.g. how can havoc know in advance that i will bring a tractor with cow dung to outline next week? i'm sure pretty much all visitors will dislike the smell of cow dung, so damn, he should've added a 'warning there might be cow dung' on the outline website so that people who really really dislike cow dung stay home!
*next month
and dont worry. i wont bring cow dung to outline, but im eyeballing this lovely 5000 liters of donkey poop offer on buyanimalpoop.com!
Let me state some observational facts:
at MS2002 (my 2nd easter party visit) there was:
- smoking in the hall
- 24h noise
- pr0n watching galore going on in the rows (ranging from ASCII to Hi-Def)
- FTP trading with a lookup list on the bigscreen
- hell, they had a secret compo (porn ftp traffic tracing) and the winner (Wiener) "won" the matrix print-out of the tracing protocol and ... a towel
- folks getting wasted 24/7
to put it short: tweenage mayhem !
[Breakpoints 2003 & 2004 out of competition b/c they were downright Ghetto-scening ;) ]
Revision 2015 there was:
- no smoking inside (not even a "mystery zone" I liked so much in Bingen)
- no obvious pr0n-o-rama shows
- children speeding around in the hall or infants on the hands and in the arms of their mothers/fathers (complete with the cute 3M noise protectors in bonbon colours)
- moderate noise from the 5711 "Brüllwürfel" which at certain points was a little stressing but nowhere near the level of getting bonkers about it (next time play Stieber Twins, or else ...!)
- a women ratio in actually measurable proportions, compared to MS times
...something definitely has changed over the last decade
Face it, if this were a country-fair in my area with that level of alcohol consumption and the same level of women attending, there would be fist fights within a matter of hours, police, emergency services, the works.
Yes, demoparties are crazy but crazy in a still civilised way.
Ich habe fertig.
at MS2002 (my 2nd easter party visit) there was:
- smoking in the hall
- 24h noise
- pr0n watching galore going on in the rows (ranging from ASCII to Hi-Def)
- FTP trading with a lookup list on the bigscreen
- hell, they had a secret compo (porn ftp traffic tracing) and the winner (Wiener) "won" the matrix print-out of the tracing protocol and ... a towel
- folks getting wasted 24/7
to put it short: tweenage mayhem !
[Breakpoints 2003 & 2004 out of competition b/c they were downright Ghetto-scening ;) ]
Revision 2015 there was:
- no smoking inside (not even a "mystery zone" I liked so much in Bingen)
- no obvious pr0n-o-rama shows
- children speeding around in the hall or infants on the hands and in the arms of their mothers/fathers (complete with the cute 3M noise protectors in bonbon colours)
- moderate noise from the 5711 "Brüllwürfel" which at certain points was a little stressing but nowhere near the level of getting bonkers about it (next time play Stieber Twins, or else ...!)
- a women ratio in actually measurable proportions, compared to MS times
...something definitely has changed over the last decade
Face it, if this were a country-fair in my area with that level of alcohol consumption and the same level of women attending, there would be fist fights within a matter of hours, police, emergency services, the works.
Yes, demoparties are crazy but crazy in a still civilised way.
Ich habe fertig.
Quote:
next time play Stieber Twins, or else ...!
^ This.
I've been following this thread back and forth but fail to see an issue other than what dixan said.. other than that what i've read isn't worse than any other night-out.. i really need to visit a demoparty soon to see what the fuzz is about :)
+1 for stieber twins!
at least they had dendemann on heavy rotation :p
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that idea of warnings is flawed. e.g. how can havoc know in advance that i will bring a tractor with cow dung to outline next week? i'm sure pretty much all visitors will dislike the smell of cow dung, so damn, he should've added a 'warning there might be cow dung' on the outline website so that people who really really dislike cow dung stay home!
Maybe a "warning: Maali plans to visit this party" then?
It could be something more general, my thinking is rather than a CoC which says what is or is not allowed, just make sure all the visitors are warned that (almost) everything is allowed, and maybe give links to party reports from previous years or something like that to help newcomers can better know what to expect.
This sounds like a reasonable change, which shouldn't affect the party experience but could avoid some disapointments. Or at least, next time someone complains you can tell them there was a warning on the website and they should have read it before coming.
I also think the Code of Conduct idea - the way it's implemented at tech conferences - is unnecessary, and it feels like people latched on the hyperbole of having a document telling you how to address others and which hand to hold it with at the urinal, OR ELSE.
Nah, we can just try basic stuff, "be respectful and mindful to each other and their property", "if you have a problem, try to solve it amicably, if not, ask an organizer to arbitrate", "watch out for each other", "the organizers have the final word", stuff that feels obvious to us but may not be for someone coming from different backgrounds. (Just think of how at a LAN party, organizers would mostly be treated as an ineffective nuisance, compared to how we treat organizers as competent and efficient.) It's really minuscule, for more serious matters we already have the house rules. Sure, it might not change much, "but it's like praying - what's the risk?"
Nah, we can just try basic stuff, "be respectful and mindful to each other and their property", "if you have a problem, try to solve it amicably, if not, ask an organizer to arbitrate", "watch out for each other", "the organizers have the final word", stuff that feels obvious to us but may not be for someone coming from different backgrounds. (Just think of how at a LAN party, organizers would mostly be treated as an ineffective nuisance, compared to how we treat organizers as competent and efficient.) It's really minuscule, for more serious matters we already have the house rules. Sure, it might not change much, "but it's like praying - what's the risk?"
or just be less naive and know that in a bigger group of people, there's a bigger chance of meeting people you really really like, but also people you really really dont like?
i'm so fucking appalled by the discussion level in this thread right now that i don't even know what to say.
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Nah, we can just try basic stuff, "be respectful and mindful to each other and their property", "if you have a problem, try to solve it amicably, if not, ask an organizer to arbitrate", "watch out for each other", "the organizers have the final word", stuff that feels obvious to us but may not be for someone coming from different backgrounds. (Just think of how at a LAN party, organizers would mostly be treated as an ineffective nuisance, compared to how we treat organizers as competent and efficient.) It's really minuscule, for more serious matters we already have the house rules.
+1. Bit sad that there seem to be people for which this isn't obvious but otherwise quite agreeable.
d0DgE, alkama, scamp & kebby describe it pretty well =)
And it is pretty poor that there are still people complaining about the viprinet-redundancy advertisement: If you cannot spot the difference between "sexism" and "playing with clichés" there is something wrong with YOU, not the banner or the ones behind it.
@pixtur: there already is a place with decent volume level for having a chat - it´s called "outside area". worked pretty well for me at every easterparty ;)
@maali/outline: you promise, you deliver ;)
And it is pretty poor that there are still people complaining about the viprinet-redundancy advertisement: If you cannot spot the difference between "sexism" and "playing with clichés" there is something wrong with YOU, not the banner or the ones behind it.
@pixtur: there already is a place with decent volume level for having a chat - it´s called "outside area". worked pretty well for me at every easterparty ;)
@maali/outline: you promise, you deliver ;)
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the viprinet-redundancy advertisement
well, Fashion could to a "vice versa version" (tripple V \m/) where a woman has six lovers in her bed, two of them "in the mood", the rest preoccupied with sports, beers, "bromance" and/or nerdism/demomaking activities (like: dude, noticed that lady / yes, but look at this when I unroll that inner loop, saved 70 cycles ... yyeeeeeaah *highfive*)
Such a photo-op would be the demoscene way to answer (and quell for good) any stupid sexism ( boy, do I hate "isms") remarks.
Hatte ich nich' fertig ? Flasche leer !
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well, Fashion could to a "vice versa version" (tripple V \m/) where a woman has six lovers in her bed
until some gays rain on your parade because they feel left out and discriminated...
you forgot the lesbians. shame on you!